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Thread: Jewellers' saw blades
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20th September 2021, 07:18 PM #16
The standard books on amateur lathes (Sparey, Harold Hall etc) show how it’s done. I agree that first time might take quite some time, but like most skills it will likely speed up over time. One day I might give it a go! But I will need to get the lathe properly set up - it’s been a real round tuit project.
As for quality blades becoming available, hope springs eternal but there are few examples of an existing brand restoring lost quality - it takes a new entrant to fill the niche left by the existing brands as a result of their abandonment of the quality end ( think lie Nielsen and veritas - they only exist because Stanley had become awful). Once management consultants and accountants have taken control of a business it is an inevitable decline in quality in the futile search for profit margin.Cheers
Jeremy
If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well it were done quickly
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20th September 2021, 09:26 PM #17
Jeremy, go for it, with my blessing. I'll be quite interested in reading about how you do it, but it's extremely unlikely I'd be tempted to try myself. My lathe is purely a means to an end, & though I like having it & am very thankful for what it does, it's not a hobby in itself, so I just don't have the interest in pushing it to see what I can make it do. If the challenge is to see what you can get your lathe to do rather than just build a plane or two, I totally understand, but if the latter is more important, then I assure you, it will almost certainly be quicker if you cut the dovetails manually. As I've said on many occasions, it's far from the major job in building a plane.
Perhaps the main reason I stick with a basic tools approach is because I constantly push the message that it's possible to make a very good infill with nothing more than simple hand tools and is something anyone can aspire to with only a minimal investment in tools required. So using machinery would be something of a betrayal, methinks. I already feel a bit guilty about using my lathe to make thumbscrews when I could make them without (& have done so)....
Cheers,
IanIW
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17th March 2022, 09:06 AM #18
Fell off the wagon (again!)
Yeah, ok, so I've made yet another plane I was never going to make....
When I started to make the little plane that kicked off this thread I envisaged it with a rounded sole. However, I could not think of an easy way to do that using dovetailed construction. Theoretically, you could use a thick sole, dovetail the body together, then file a rounded bottom on the sole. If the peening was perfect & each tail completely filled its socket internally, that should work fine. But the reality is that it’s extremely difficult to ensure that you have filled each socket to perfection when you can’t see what’s going on deep inside, and I would expect to uncover a few nasty voids filing so much away. So because it was mainly an exercise to see how small I could go, & use up some very small scraps, I stuck with a flat sole.
Ever since I finished it, I’d been musing about how I might make a small plane with a curved sole. I made a ‘double radiused’ plane for chair seats some years ago but opted for a wooden body with a brass strip across the front of the mouth, riveted to brass sides. I was a bit dubious about my construction method, but so far it has remained stable & solid.
Anyway an idea occurred to me of how I could make a small radiused sole on a dovetailed body. No need to go into full details of the build, I'll just describe what I did that was different from making a 'normal' plane body.
The amount of curvature needed for such a small plane is very slight, so my idea was to start out with a slightly thicker sole piece than I would normally use, and shape it. I started with a bit of steel just under 4mm thick for the sole (#1 was 3.2mm) and proceeded as if making a flat-soled plane to start with. I broached & filed the mouth, then marked, cut, & fitted the side dovetails while everything was still square. Then I drew some guidelines on the sole & screwed it onto a block of wood through the mouth:
1 Shaping sole.jpg
I then filed a curve front-to-back & side-to-side. The radius of the curve would be ~100 mm side to side & more like 150mm front to back so it is not a lot (but still took quite a bit of filing!).
Here it is set up ready to peen - there is lots of protrusion of the front & back tails! 2 on peening block.jpg
Peening was straightforward, though I realised after I'd started (too late) I should have trimmed the front & back tails a bit, there was much more metal protruding than needed, which makes peening more difficult. Fortunately, the Chinese brass I was using is very malleable & I got them pounded down without mishap; there were a couple of small gaps when filed off, but nothing too bad: 3 Sole radius.jpg
The rest of the build went smoothly. With the benefit of experience on Vers1 I used 6mm thick brass for the back cross-piece instead of 4mm, which makes a more solid base for the back of the blade to sit on (there is no infill, the blade sits on the back of the mouth & the cross-piece only). The mouth isn't quite as I wanted it to be. I tried to keep it very narrow until the final fit, so I could round the front to match the curve of the sole & have the gap even, but it sorta sneaked up on me and it would have become too wide if I'd evened it out, so I've left it straight across. It's more of an aesthetic flaw than functional as it's not designed for fine planing: 4 mouth.jpg
I tried the plane with a fine set & it planed quite ok along the grain direction, but its main role is to scoop out little pills of wood across the grain, which it does very nicely: 5 shavings.jpg
So, curiosity satisfied & I got what I really wanted in the first place. The brass scraps were also about 5mm longer so I was able to cut out a better shape for the sides (well, I think so, anyway): 6 done.jpg
Cheers,IW
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17th March 2022, 10:46 AM #19GOLD MEMBER
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Beautiful work Ian. When do you start making violins? (or maybe go back to it if I recall correctly?)
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17th March 2022, 11:14 AM #20
Yawn, no news there .
The radius looks to be quite subtle in the photos but on thinking about the numbers you gave it is apparent that you could hollow out a piece of timber to a considerable depth with that plane.
Is there any particular reason for having a different radius in the lateral direction?Cheers, Bob the labrat
Measure once and.... the phone rings!
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17th March 2022, 02:11 PM #21
Nope, instrument-making is one of many areas I have not dabbled in, MA. I long nurtured a desire to do so, & at one point my son was keen to have a go at making guitars, but for various reasons, it never happened, & now we live 3 states apart, so I don't know when we will get around to that! I will just have to content myself with admiring some of the terrific work of others.....
Cheers,IW
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17th March 2022, 02:23 PM #22
Bob, my reasoning is that the more curvature, the harder it is to control the plane. The fore-aft curve is what sets the tone, and you'll know if you've used a compass plane it gets harder to control the tighter the radius you are working. The side-to side curve doesn't need to be much at all for it to work like a gouge, and the less you have, the easier it is to plane a fairly smooth surface rather than a series of wheel-ruts. The curvature may not seem much, but you may be surprised at how small a hole it can dig. With a generous blade exposure I can scoop out a 'bowl' from a flat surface with a smaller radius than the plane's sole, but its main use for me will be as a tiny scrub plane, roughing out very small areas on small stuff... (& showing-off to others how small I can go .... )
Cheers,IW
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18th March 2022, 12:39 AM #23Member
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I really enjoyed this post Ian. I make instruments, at least I've made a few hand carved F5 mandolins in the past. Currently trying to find the desire to finish an acoustic guitar I've been working on. There are so many detours in my shop and I want to follow in your footsteps and someday make an infill, they look so nice. This little plane would see a bit of bench time if I didn't already have the Ibex set. I have it in my mind to build a infill shoulder plane first since I don't own one. Anyway, I'm glad to have builders like yourself to learn from. Oh, when I retire the things I'll do.
Dick Hutchings
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18th March 2022, 08:30 AM #24
This is what we all think, bp, until it happens. Then everything slows down, except time!
Thanks for the kind words, my whole idea is to encourage others to have a go. I couldn't claim every plane I've made was a roaring success, but given my level of ignorance & incompetence when I started, surprisingly few have been complete duds.
A shoulder plane made by laminating sides to core pieces is pretty straightforward, and I've suggested it's a good introduction to making metal-bodied planes. You have a choice of 5 different sizes of proprietary blades, and you can make a matching width body for all of these using stock sizes of brass, which makes things much easier.
SPs all sizes.jpg
(These are not all mine, I made a couple for someone else & just happened to have an example of every size from 1/2" to 1.25" at one time so I couldn't pass up the photo op....)
The first shoulder plane I made using the lamination technique was in the early 80s. It had a Record 1.25" blade.
6 SP.jpg
I made it with an adjustable toe, which I decided was an unnecessary complication, and it left a bit to be desired aesthetically, but it worked ok & served me well for several decades. I probably would have gone on using it 'til the end of (shed) days but I made a similar size for someone with a heavier blade (L.N.), which was a lot more "solid" than the thin Record blade. So the old original rosewood-infill model gave way to a ringed gidgee infill model, to match two smaller planes I'd made in the meantime. The side profiles are copied from an old Miller of London example I saw. So I now have 3 of the things, an utterly unnecessary luxury, but they do make a nice family group
S-planes.jpg
The little 1/2 inch job is surprisingly handy, and I think something this size would see a lot of use in any shop where instruments or other small stuff gets made. I haven't been making much in the way of furniture or bigger stuff these last few years, so the large size hasn't had all that much use - I think the last time I used it seriously was when I was making a large trestle table (which was two years ago, already!)
So yeah, a shoulder plane is lotsa fun to make & though you are unlikely to use it every day, when you need it, it sure is a handy tool to have around the 'shop.
Cheers,
Ian
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18th March 2022, 11:40 AM #25
Exactly my thoughts! Only another 35+ years of work to go, but my list of things to make and skills to learn lengthens by the day.
I'd say you're succeeding, Ian. Those planes are stunning! I'm beyond keen to attempt to make one and I'm sure a lot of others are inspired by your work. Blows my mind!
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18th March 2022, 03:41 PM #26SENIOR MEMBER
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I just realised how bad your problem is Ian, when I went looking for this thread. You have tried to hide another plane build inside a thread about 'saw blades'.
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18th March 2022, 06:20 PM #27
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18th March 2022, 06:26 PM #28
I would point to a precedent. Now that the OP has included a theme off-topic, almost anything is now permitted your honour. In sentencing, I would like the following to be included.....
Actually.....maybe not.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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18th March 2022, 07:02 PM #29SENIOR MEMBER
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19th March 2022, 05:59 AM #30GOLD MEMBER
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stainless is a booger for sawing, even for portabands. I don't know if the blades you had deformed due to unhardened stainless or if something was going on at the point of the cut where little bits of metal were work or air hardening.
I've made a bunch of plane irons out of XHP and if you pause for a second with a bimetal portaband blade, the steel at the point of the cut will harden and run the teeth right off of the blade. It's a hardness issue more than wear resistance and I would guess the reality with jewelers blades is that they've never really intended to please a market for cutting stainless.
I'm sure if I asked starrett about the portaband blades, they would say "why are you cutting stainless dry?".
I've gone back to cutting XHP by hand with lenox hacksaw blades - it's not fast, but it's not really slower than whizzing $7 worth of teeth off of blades and then waiting for more to be delivered (those portabands will generally cut 4 or 5 full sets of carbon steel to make chisels - or put in money terms (the way I prefer to think of it) about 35 cents a chisel to get a fat piece of bar stock that can be hammered to taper.
The same thing has happened mostly with files here - they were in home stores in limited sizes, but nicholson. Then nicholson went to mex and they're OK (more recent have improved to near what they were before they left the USA) and then they disappeared from at least one of the two chains here. I no longer try to buy any of this stuff in person (lenox bimetal blades for hack saws would've been something I could get for the same price in person, but haven't seen in "roughing" tooth count for a long time - 18tpi).
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