Thread: Jewellers' saw blades

Originally Posted by IanW

But cutting out dovetail sockets with a hacksaw by sawing a series of fillets & breaking them off is a tedious chore that leaves me with way more filing (with inferior files) so it's swings & roundabouts...Cheers,

Whooo, sorry about the extra large photo.

Someone at gladron (or whatever company markets that brand) knows the answer to your question. I wonder what it is. As you describe, it's either a fragility thing or a lack of strength in the metal (the corners are being deformed or they're being chipped off in tiny amounts). The answer to that may provide a clue, but I tend to think that it's more likely to be not hard enough than it is too hard.

While someone knows the answer, I'm fairly certain they'll never tell you what it is.

As for the hacksaw blades, I like the lenox blades OK, but I can stand the paint on them - it comes right off in steel. I would go so far as to guess that corrosion resistance on most hacksaw blades is more important than how good the blades are (because blades sitting in a humid environment will rust - some of my lenox blades have). Of course, you or I don't care much about that but to the public, it's "defective".

Years ago, I bought a "made in usa buck brothers" pack of blades that were described as being high speed steel or bimetal, I can't remember which. I bought them to compare with the lenox. The teeth came right off in annealed O1 bar stock.

I seriously doubt whatever the reason is for the drop in quality that it's accidental or quality control, though. It's cost cutting due to lack of a market for the capability.

I guess you'll have to get EDM or waterjet!

Picko me lad, you have a much steadier hand than I have, or more practice with angle-grinders (or likely both) and probably far better eyesight! I would over-cut the line on every 2nd cut trying that (I have considered it a few times but decided it was just too risky). I do use the 1mm cutoff wheels a lot, but only for long straight cuts & usually with a guide. For those kinds of cuts, it has to be the old push-me gadget for me I'm afraid, slower, but far less likely to end in tears. Actually, the hack-sawing isn't so bad, it's knocking out the fillets & filing the resulting mess that I find most tedious.

You've just given the game away a bit there - I see by the groove on the left of that piece it's going to be a split-sole job. Looks like a low-angle BU something in the works.....

That is a substantial chunk of steel, too - at least 6mm by the looks!

Cheers,

Already complete . See here Suggestions for blade use please (post #23)
Yeah the sole is a bit of 6mm - just something I had laying around.

Originally Posted by Picko

....Already complete ......

OK, mea culpa, I haven't been paying full attention to that section lately...

A good read & well done - you'll soon be banging out infills with great elan, & I particularly commend your use of "found" materials - a man after me own heart.

Let's see, you have the shoulder plane from the 'great plane challenge', now your block plane, I think you're ready to tackle a panel plane or a jointer maybe? The little smoother I suggested is probably too easy....

Cheers,

Waaait a minute, I don't have a problem like some people. Ahem, do you by chance have any examples to hand of these panel & jointer planes.

Of course!

Brass P_P.jpg Steel P_P.jpg

Those are "panel" planes, and at approximately 300mm long, at the lower end of panel plane size, they ranged up to 18", which is getting on for a short jointer. If you have the stamina for my long-winded posts, the all-steel build is covered here, and the brass & steel version here

I haven't attempted a jointer, at least not an infill, one of the first planes I made was a wooden jointer, which was semi-successful until it delaminated 'cos in my ignorance I used the wrong glue & kept it in a moist basement workshop. Years ago, when I was still full of vim & vinegar, I did consider making an infill jointer but stumbling on a really good Record 07 pushed that project well to the back of the queue. Now, just the thought of lapping a 24" sole makes me want to go & lie down for a nap! But I'm obviously a wimp, 'cos Bill Carter, who is probably 10 yrs older, is still at it!

To be perfectly honest, Picko, infill panel planes & jointers are not the most practical everyday tools for anyone, imo, let alone an ageing wood warrior like myself. The 07 gives me a good enough workout, and an infill of the same length would weigh considerably more, so the thought of pushing one of those around doesn't exactly fill me with eager anticipation! I can't imagine them doing a superior job, by any practical measure.

The panel planes are both hefty brutes, far heavier than my 5 1/2, which is roughly equivalent in length & width. I use them as giant smoothers, they are the bees' knees for levelling and smoothing book-matched panels (which may be how they got their name, I've never been able to discover exactly what their role was in their heyday). With book-matches, the grain necessarily goes opposite ways on each half; sometimes the directional changes are mild and just about any plane could handle the job, but the more interesting bookmatches are usually more of a challenge. Any well-setup smoother can do the job, but the panel planes just do it with such grace, they seem to just glide over the wildest grain leaving a clean, level surface like no other plane in my kit. It must be the weight keeping the blade evenly engaged throughout the stroke, because no matter how well I set up my 5 1/2, it just doesn't do the same job.

However, because of their weight & bulk, I don't go for a panel plane for most smoothing jobs, I much prefer one of my more typical 'smoothers', particularly one I finished a couple of years ago, that is about the size of a #3. I had about 20 infills under my belt by this one, & had a few more clues about what I was doing: Shavings.jpg

The panel planes are a delight to use (for short bursts, anyway) but of all the planes I've made, including the minis, they would see the least use. So if you want to tackle a large infill, go to it with my blessing, the satisfaction of completing something like that would be hard to beat, but I reckon you'll get far more use out of your block plane than you would from a panel plane or infill jointer, no matter how well they turned out.....

Cheers,

Ahem! Good evening ladies & gentlemen..... I confess I've fallen off the wagon again....

I can blame Cklett - he called in a couple of weeks ago with several packs of jewellers saw blades - #6 Super Pike to be exact. I was most pleased as I was down to my last few blades so a big thankyou to Ck & his mum for mailing them with a care package! . So now I can round out this thread where it all began, with a review of more blades.

To recap, it was a bunch of what I reckoned were inferior Glardon blades that sent me on a mission to find some blades that would stand up to sawing steel, especially the stainless variety. The Glardons I'd just bought (which hitherto I'd found to be the best of the best), just wouldn't cut the mustard - well they'd probably cut mustard ok, but not stainless steel.

Super Pike are considered among the best (they claim they are the best), so I was keen to see how they'd perform. I had enough brass for the sides of an "English thumb plane", which is a plane I've rather taken to since I built one a couple of years ago. The low-angle bevel-up style of these requires the sole to be split so the bed bevel can be formed. The method I've evolved for getting most of the waste out is to make a series of hacksaw cuts, then cut out enough of the resulting fillets with the jewellers saw to be able to fit a hacksaw blade in & cut the remainder off. The Pike blades seemed to be ok cutting the slivers off, but it's an awkward cut & hard to tell how well the blades are cutting: 1 SS sole.jpg

This still leaves a lot of metal to file, and I discovered after trying several files & making very little progress that I need a new set of files! My current lot have reached the end of their lives and were struggling to cut the SS. Being impatient, I decided to switch to mild steel instead, which the worn files managed, albeit grudgingly. So after another half-day's work I had sole with a bed: 2 CRS sole.jpg

Next job is to make the tongue & groove joint to register the sole pieces. The best way to form the tongue that I've found so far is to clamp a piece of steel across the scribe line to guide a hacksaw blade. This leaves a sliver of metal on a 1.5mm tongue which is easily filed off with a safe-edge file: 3 Toe piece.jpg

I forgot to take pics of the groove part, which involves cutting it with a hacksaw then filling to the lines with a flat needle-file (v. tedious!)

I leave the guide block that I glued on to file the blade bevel in place while fitting the toe & sorting out the mouth: 4 testing mouth a.jpg

I aim to get the blade not-quite coming through so I can do the final tweaking after the sole is lapped. The blade is not quite through, which is perfect: 5 testing mouth b.jpg

With the mouth done, the guide block can be knocked off. Because I used PVA glue, it caused some light rusting of the sole: 6 guide block removed.jpg

Which was very superficial & sanded off easily: 7 rust cleaned.jpg

The side D/Ts were scribed onto the sole: 8 Marking sides.jpg

Then the sockets were cut & fitted & the body banged up: 9 sides peined.jpg

Cutting the sockets in the 5mm thick steel sole was the first real test of the Super Pikes. I'll give them a B+ - much better than most of the other brands I've tried, but still not up to the Glardons of old. I'd put them on a par, or slightly ahead of some German "Antilope" blades I used, and comfortably ahead of the current lot of Glardons I've got.

I left the plane tonight with the infill rough-cut (some nice, dense bull-oak): 10 preparing infill.jpg

Still a good few hours to go to finish up, & I discovered I'm short of the size brass rod I need to fit the bridge, so I've ordered some more. It should come in a couple of days, so with luck I'll finish the job by early nest week. But don't worry, I won't be bored, I've got another little job to keep me busy in the meantime......

Cheers,

Ian

Stainless steel is a strange metal to cut and, because it is an alloy, quite variable unlike mild steel which is virtually always the same. Although most SS is relatively soft and ductile, it work hardens quickly. When drilling, the technique is to use a slow speed and heaps of pressure. This allows the drill bit to be continually in new metal. If it is allowed to go too fast or too gently the metal glazes over, (my non-technical term) hardens and even your best drill bit won't touch it. I imagine some of this is the problem with the jeweller's blades. The frail nature of the blades don't permit strong pressure. It may also be that the particular SS you are currently using is less forgiving than the material you were cutting with the original Glardon brand blades.

Without the original SS or some of the old blades to try on the current material it is not possible to assess this conjecture. Of course it could also be, as you have suggested, that the quality control or manufacturing process has changed. We have certainly seen this with files and blades in general.

The English Thumb Plane is coming up a treat. The bevel on the sole looks so precise!

Regards
Paul

Paul, I'm not sure if 'work hardening' is the source of the trouble with the blades. You can put a surprising amount of pressure on these little blades, much more than necessary to get them to bite into the material quite aggressively. What happens is the outer edges of the teeth wear quickly (which I speculate is due to the chromium?), so the blades rapidly lose "set". The teeth still feel sharp to my finger, but I can feel the drag on the saw increasing, slowly at first, then rapidly. That can be countered a little by twisting the blade left & right a wee bit on alternate strokes to enlarge the kerf; it makes it harder to saw a really accurate line, but keeps things moving along. However, sooner or later, the blade jams on a crumb of metal dragged into the kerf & I mean jam! Takes a lot of careful wriggling to release it, and often enough, the blade breaks in the process. That' both an annoyance & a relief, 'cos then I have to fit a new blade. The new, unworn blade struggles to fit in the kerf of the old one, so it's a bit of jiggling getting it in to re-start, but once back at the coalface, normal cutting resumes.

It may sound like more hassle than it's worth, but if you can saw out the waste accurately, it reduces the amount of filing to clean up those sockets by an order of magnitude & makes it far easier to get a nice, neat fit, which in turn makes the peining a whole lot easier. Filleting with a hacksaw or cutoff wheel and breaking out the fillets works, but every cut risks going past the line if you try to get the most out of that method, and the mess to file afterwards can be discouraging on a larger plane. (Picko, you have my utmost respect & envy for managing with a cuttoff wheel - you must have the hand of a micro-surgeon!)

So there's a trade-off - if the blades are really poor like a couple of brands I tried, you will be lucky to saw 5mm in 5mm thick SS, and around 10mm in mild steel (the same symptoms occur with the MS, just happens a bit more slowly). In that case filleting will be the better choice or you'll go bonkers trying to saw out the waste. The Pikes managed around 40mm of linear sawing in the MS, so they were quite acceptable really, & in fact I'd vote them the best currently available (thanks again Ck!). They sailed through 3.2mm brass like butter and I easily cut out both sides and their tails with a single blade, though even the poor blades will cut brass acceptably, so sawing that is never a problem.

You are dead right in the variation in SS alloys. I've used 3 different alloys so far, judging by the way they saw & peen. The only one I know for certain is some 18/8 "food grade" stuff I bought from a bloke who does commercial kitchens. The nicest to work with was the 1/8" stuff you gave me (the boxes), it cut, filed & peined almost the same as mild steel. I wish I knew exactly what it was, I'd love to get my hands on some 4 or 5mm thick pieces of it! It's fine for miniatures, but a bit thin for anything much bigger than this:
pic 7.jpg

I did use it for my two scale-model bench planes, but added a blade-block to thicken & stiffen the soles around the mouth:
Pair.jpg

The very worst of the bunch for killing cutting tools is the thick stuff you gave me. Even the cutoff wheel feels the difference & it takes at least 50% longer to cut, & dulls hacksaw blades & files like glass. It's ok to peen, surprisingly, though certainly resists deformation more than MS. I had to beat it twice as long & I think it did start to work-harden after a lot of pounding, but the hardening was quite superficial & a bit of filing soon got rid of it (I could not detect any magnetism to speak of). I've done two 'regular-sized' planes with it so far & had a struggle getting it to cooperate, but the results were worth it (after my shoulders recovered!), the soles polished up beautifully & seem to resist picking up gum better than MS. And after the effort to bring them into the world, I would hope those planes will be around for a long time after I'm gone...

Cheers,

Ian,

I’ve been using Pikes number 4 of late(I wanted 6 but Australian jeweller supplies were out of stock when I ordered)I don’t have the mileage(kilometres [emoji6]) you have.

But , I’ve found if I wipe the new blade through a stick of bees wax, just one stroke,they seem to cut easier. I’ve been cutting some 5/6 mm mild steel, and if i stay focused (a whole other issue).
I can get well over 40 mm from a blade, if I’m focused [emoji6].

Just my Two pennies worth [emoji6].

Cheers Matt.

Well I am glad the blades deserved the sacrifice of valuable cookie space/weight in the care packet [emoji6]

I haven't used mine yet, but looking forward now to the next build.

Sent from my SM-G781B using Tapatalk

Matt, AJS seems to be permanently "out of stock" of any good brand >#4. Dunno why, I guess only nutters who make infill planes need the coarser blades. Number 4s are about as fine as it's worth using, & I'll use them at a pinch, but 6s or coarser are much better for cutting the thick stuff - they cut faster & are more robust. For cutting out 1/2" inch or thicker brass for lever caps, #8s are the best, but good luck finding any of those this side of big stretches of water.

Yairs, I know precisely what you mean by "staying focused"! When I started out, I reckon I broke a blade every 25mm, but nowadays I often wear them out before they break, especially when cutting brass. Something you've probably noticed too, is that they don't cut brass worth a damn after sawing a few mm of steel...

I haven't tried the beeswax idea - got a few cuts to make this arvo so I'll give it a go & let you know if it improves things for me. I did try some cutting fluid a while back, but all that seemed to do was increase the mess & obscure the line. It also dissolves the layout dye, which doesn't help!

Cheers,
Ian

Not wanting to Hi Jack the thread.


Just found this:

144/Pk Pike Jeweler's Saw Blades #6 Jewelry Making Cutting Sawblades https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07HGKPSJY...0C55YX9E6RDP06


Looks like number 6 blades an not 0.6 blades, I was for warned by Ian that number 6 an 0.6 are a big difference in size.
I ordered some 0.6, only to find out they would be great for cutting Tin foil, not the thick stuff those weird Infill plane makers use.
Lesson learned stick to whole numbers 4 an above.

Cheers Matt.