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    Default How often should a saw be 'jointed'?

    This subject was raised in another thread, and rather than take that thread off-topic, I thought I might start a new thread because the subject has popped up a few times recently, so maybe it's time to give it some air-time. I don't think it's rocket-science, but there seems to be a bit of odd 'information' floating about.

    So, to the post that has prompted this:
    Quote Originally Posted by D.W. View Post
    I see another topic on SMC that is sort of relevant when you're working entirely by hand vs. not, and I may have mentioned it.

    Whether or not you joint saws. If you're going to work entirely by hand, you need to discard the notion that you're going to joint a saw that's in good working order and develop the ability to remove the wear from the teeth without dropping the tooth line unevenly or making misshapen teeth.

    Would I tell someone who is new to do that?
    1) Yes if they have a saw that was perfect and is just getting dull - because you don't know what they'll do if they joint the saw. If they just "make the teeth pointy again", they may adjust the height just a little wrong, but it probably won't be that bd
    2) if they're buying a flea market saw that's in horrible shape - you have to joint the teeth


    The reason that I say that you have to discard jointing if you're going to work entirely by hand is because you can, with some skill, keep a tooth line relatively level for 10 or 20 resharpenings without issue. Set is the same - you do it only when you need to. It will probably be only every few sharpenings.

    You absolutely cannot delay sharpening your break-down crosscut saws (the ones you use to get wood close to dimension or cut to a line when the back side of a cut isn't critical) or rip saws. If you make a piece of case work, you will resharpen your rip saw each time you do so. Why? Because it will ultimately be less work. If the saw doesn't feed back to you that it's getting out of whack, then it's not out of whack.

    You also get to the point where you can disregard the improper advice to throw away file each time you sharpen a saw (or discard an edge). You can probably touch up 10 rip saws with one good file. There is no reason to throw them out when you're just removing wear and they move plenty fast enough. To me, that's not an economy thing, it's avoiding the nuisance of constantly ordering files just to remove more metal than you need to. It's laziness, again - functional laziness.......

    ......The same is true for dovetail saws, but dovetail and tenon saws do not take nearly the amount of wear and don't need to be touched up as often.

    Did I learn this from Warren? No, I learned it from laziness. I joint an old saw and set it up initially when I get one (I have what i need now, so that no longer happens) and I have not jointed any of the saws that I have since then. They will need it at some point......
    On the face of it, a commonsense approach - if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

    For those just coming to the mysteries of hand saws, 'jointing', i.e. running a file along the tops of the teeth to bring the tips into line is what we do when either multiple sharpenings or poor technique has resulted in teeth of uneven size, whose tips do not form a straight line (or a gentle curve in the case of 'breasted' saws). You will feel uneven teeth most readily using a ripsaw in hard woods, particularly when cutting straight across the grain as you do when completing a shoulder cut, etc. The saw shudders as the high teeth hit the wood giving the saw a most unpleasant action. You get a similar feel, though not as severe, if cutting very hard woods with too high a rake angle, as each tooth bites more than it should.

    A very skilled sharpener can correct uneven teeth to a large extent by eye & feel, and even things up sufficiently as they go, but most of us haven't served long apprenticeships filing saws every day, so we need all the help we can get. Jointing can be a big help. I can feel when a gullet is shallow, but without the little shiny flats on the tooth top, I don't always correctly identify which way to lean on the file to correct it. If the flats either side of the tooth are even, you just cut the gullet deeper, but if it's much wider on one tip than the other, you have to 'lean' on the file so that you cut both downwards & in the direction of the longer flat.

    A dull saw should be pretty obvious to anyone as soon as you start using it they don't get very far after many strokes. Feeling the tips with your finger isn't terribly accurate after the saw has been in use a while, but on a freshly-sharpend saw, sharp teeth feel 'sticky' if you press a finger lightly on the tops. If your saw is cutting smoothly but slowly, it's a good bet the teeth are just dull, jointing shouldn't be required, and a quick sharpen usually does wonders. The mantra with saw sharpening is consistency! Get yourself comfortable, have adequate light, and give the same number of even-pressured strokes to each gullet, keeping the file at the desired angle (this will require several changes of body position even for a 300mm saw blade). A 'touch-up' usually only needs a single full, firm stroke followed by a very light stroke. The light stroke smooths the metal & leaves little or no burr if you do it correctly.

    If your saw teeth are of all shapes & sizes, you are unlikely to be able to re-form them evenly without the extra help of prior jointing. You don't need to file off half the teeth (although I have had to do that on a few real horror-shows!), just enough to form a visible shiny spot on every tip. Even on a pretty rough saw, you will usually only need to remove something of the order of .2mm from the total width of the saw to achieve this, so you are not threatening the life of your saw too much by a few light jointings.

    A question that also arises is, 'when to re-set?'. Obviously, as you keep filing away, you are reducing the height of teeth & thus removing the set, which ideally, should only be on the top 3rd of each tooth, or about the top half on very small teeth. I find re-setting is necessary after any major re-forming (of course), otherwise I usually get two re-sharpens before needing a re-set. Mileages will vary on this aspect, because it depends on how much metal you remove per sharpen. If sharpening your own saws, you will know if the saw was starting to bind a bit in deep cuts, a sure sign of re-setting being required. You should set after re-forming, but before the sharpening strokes because any setting will distort the tips of the teeth a little. The sharpening stroke(s) should tidy that up nicely (if it doesn't, better take a serious look at the plunger on your saw-set, or ease off on the amount of breakfast you consume! ).

    Ripsaws are pretty straightforward, but when it comes to crosscut saws, everything cranks up a notch. If I'm faced with a crosscut saw that needs tooth reforming, I know I'm going to have to shed a bit more metal to get there. Even though I sharpen way more saws than average, I still find it extremely difficult to restore uneven crosscut teeth and maintain the fleam as I go. If they are seriously out of whack, I have to joint heavily & re-form the teeth before re-forming the fleam angles. It's a character flaw, I know, I've seen more skilled people do it with apparent ease, but unless I'm having an extremely good day, I end up chasing my tail, and bad can deteriorate to worse very quickly.

    And when to chuck a file? When it's dull, of course! As D.W. says, a decent file will give you something of the order of ten or a dozen sharpens (it depends on saw sizes & the total number of teeth involved, of course). If you don't do much filing, it's probably hard to tell, but if in doubt, break out a new file & see how that cuts. If it cuts way more cleanly & easily than the old one, you have your answer. Saw files wear first on the corners because that's simply where the pressure is concentrated. If you sharpen a lot of saws, you soon have a tin full of discarded files with reasonably good teeth except for their corners. They are handy for jobs where I need a safe-edged file to get into a corner - a light pass or two across the grinder removes what's left of the corner teeth & Bob's your aunty......

    Cheers,
    IW

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  3. #2
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    That was well explained. I would have just said if you need to. I do find that the flat tops give more of a guide to keeping things even. Saying that my sharpening is rather average and still got a ways to go but I manage to get a saw cutting. Reckon I joint more often than a skilled sharpener would need to.
    Regards
    John

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    I was part of that thread on SMC. My comment:

    I touched up a couple of dovetail saws last weekend. I emphasise "touched up". This is different from re-filing the teeth, changing their size or the angle of their rake. It was evident that the saws could cut more aggressively, that is, the teeth were dulling. I am about to begin a new build, and all the tools I use are tuned up beforehand.

    Looking at the tips of the teeth it was possible to see a little light reflecting. I was using magnifiers to see this. This pointed to a very fine amount of wear.

    I did not joint the teeth - they did not appear to need it. The teeth were coplanar still. So all I did was maintain the same rake angle and take one stroke across the face of each tooth. That was enough to remove all the reflected light. It may need to be jointed next sharpening. For now it is cutting very sweetly.

    I suspect that Warren and Pete are referring to two different processes. Warren appears to be referring to the process for maintaining a reasonably sharp (but dulling) set of teeth (edit - sharpening without jointing), while Pete is referring to the process to follow when filing a new plate, or resharpening a noticeably dull set of teeth (edit - recommending jointing first). They are both relevant process that I use.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  5. #4
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    Good post, Ian.

    Derek, I'm curious, what was the nature of the discussion on SMC? Are there people out there who consider jointing to be a standard part of sharpening a saw? I mean I suppose it would help you to "guarantee" a straight tooth line, but it seems like it would eat your saw plate unnecessarily quickly. I guess what I'm asking is what was the argument to the contrary of what's been said above? Or was there one?

    I've always approached it as mentioned above, either when I'm reviving an old saw or when I've properly butchered one of my own over several sharpenings beyond a point where I can easily get it back in a line.

    Cheers,
    Luke

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    Luke; the following post from the SMC discussion may interest you;

    Stewie;

    I am very sure that someone with experience could do a credible job of sharpening a saw without jointing first, especially if the saw is not very dull. The tricky part is not having an established base line for tooth height that can be referenced. If the middle section of the saw is worn, which is usually the case, then counting strokes would still leave the outer teeth higher than the worn teeth in the middle. Jointing would give you wider flats on the outside teeth and narrower flats on the worn inside teeth. File to the point not to the count. The outside teeth will take more filing.

    Jim

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Maddux View Post
    Good post, Ian.

    Derek, I'm curious, what was the nature of the discussion on SMC? Are there people out there who consider jointing to be a standard part of sharpening a saw? I mean I suppose it would help you to "guarantee" a straight tooth line, but it seems like it would eat your saw plate unnecessarily quickly. I guess what I'm asking is what was the argument to the contrary of what's been said above? Or was there one?

    I've always approached it as mentioned above, either when I'm reviving an old saw or when I've properly butchered one of my own over several sharpenings beyond a point where I can easily get it back in a line.

    Cheers,
    Luke
    Luke, the thread is here: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....arpening-a-saw

    The thread began with a question about sharpening saws. Pete Taran responded, and it could have ended there. If you are not aware, Pete along with Patrick Leach (of Blood and Gore) began Independence Tools in the mid 80's, which Pete then ran on his own after Patrick retired. He built and filed many thousands of saws. IT was eventually purchased by Lie Nielsen, and this became their dovetail and tenon saws (The "IT" in Lie Nielsen Independence Tools). Pete runs a website (vintagesaws.com). There is not a lot he does not know about sharpening saws.

    Pete replied: Jointing is an essential step and should be done every time. The reason is, especially for beginning filers, is that you get a small flat on the top of the tooth which gives you something to shoot for with respect to how much to file. If you ignore this step, you have nothing to guide how much to file and your saw can quickly get out of whack as far as a straight cutting edge. If the teeth are in good shape, a single, even swipe is enough. If not, then do another until all the teeth has a small flat which reflects light. Don't overdo it as the more you remove, the more you will have to file each tooth to get rid of the flat and get a sharp point.

    Once you've done this, how much to file is immediately seen by the reduction in the flat. For each gullet, you should shoot to remove 1/2 the flat on each side so when you are done you have a sharp point again. Most people are surprised when they learn just how little metal is removed from each tooth to get it sharp again.

    The other player is Warren Mickley, who is often mentioned by DavidW. Warren is a prickly fellow apt to be outspoken. But he does know a thing or two about hand tool use, having been a pro restorer for some decades. His way of explaining information is rather blunt, so the unwary may be taken aback. Warren commented:

    Jason, you certainly will not need to joint the saw your first time. The reason is that we only joint to make up for sloppiness in the previous sharpening. If the present sharpening was carefully done, as it probably was for a good quality new saw, jointing is not helpful. Concentrate on taking an even amount off each tooth, and you may not have to joint the next time either.

    I have been sharpening saws since 1974, and had a small income from sharpening saws for others forty years ago. However, most of my sharpening has been sharpening the same handful of saws over and over again for my work. I am not a collector and I have never owned a power saw. What I find is that I can do numerous sharpenings without jointing. I would guess that it is on the order of half a dozen times between jointing. I can see that a beginner might need to joint more often than someone with a lot of experience and a steady hand. Also someone with experience using a saw can get a feel for when a saw needs jointing by the way it cuts.

    And so there was a dispute about technique. One does not expect this in a sharpening thread!

    Actually, I do not see their points as different, just aimed at different levels of experience. Difference circumstances. I said so .... but not before a bunch of others offered their 2 cents ... what do you expect from a sharpening thread?

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

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    Another fantastic thread Ian,
    Always a pleasure reading your threads, an yet again I feel guilty for not adding anything constructive but you almost cover everything.
    [emoji106][emoji106]

    Cheers Matt,

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    Quote Originally Posted by derekcohen View Post
    ... what do you expect from a sharpening thread? ...
    Umm, Controversy? Disagreement?

    I agree, Derek, from those excerpts it appears they weren't very far apart, & I think what I said was similar, if it comes to that. As I said, a very light jointing won't remove much saw, so if you feel the need to do it each time you sharpen, you'll probably still have your saw 30 years from now, unless you sharpen every day...

    Like any sharpening process, there are different ways to achieve the same end, and different ends suit different folks. Once you can sharpen a saw so that it cuts well (& straight) for you, you're doing ok, I reckon. The more you sharpen, the better the results will be, & the easier you will recognise when it needs sharpening - just like with plane & chisel blades.

    Cheers,
    IW

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    Derek,

    I've actually had a fair amount of communication with Pete Taran about Disston saws i was interested in buying, and I bought one from him as well, so his is definitely an opinion I respect. I've never heard anyone say that jointing a saw should be done every time, but I see his point. I guess in hindsight I typically have a good result from a saw after having jointed it, often moreso than after having NOT jointed it, so this is something to consider for me, personally.

    I guess you learn something everyday...

    And just when I thought my sharpening technique was finally where I wanted it to be!


    Cheers,
    Luke

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    I prefer to joint every time.
    What I don’t hear a lot of is side dressing, which I do lightly. Gives me a nice straight edge of the cut timber.
    Interested in other thoughts on this
    Alan

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    Quote Originally Posted by McNulty View Post
    I prefer to joint every time.
    What I don’t hear a lot of is side dressing, which I do lightly. Gives me a nice straight edge of the cut timber.
    Interested in other thoughts on this
    Alan
    If I've set a saw I run an Arkansas stone over either side a couple of times. Maybe two or three per side? I do this just to even out any burring resulting from filing. I'm not sure if it changes much but it certainly makes me feel better about it, and having saws cut straight has never been a problem of mine. I struggle more with having them cut quickly or accidentally having high or low spots in the tooth line.

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    For setting a saw, I use a technique from Mike Wenzloff, who made a number of saws for me. My variation is also used (although I did not know this at the time I started) by my good friend, Pete Taran .... and just when I thought I had added something new

    The saw is first set with a pistol setter. I like the Ellipse #77 or a Stanley #42X.

    Mike offered this method (using paper as a depth stop to even the set) ....



    I did not have a smooth-sided metal vise, and so I wrapped copy paper or blue tape (for deeper set) around the plate, placed the saw plate on the flat cast iron top of my bandsaw, and then tapped the teeth gently with a steel gennou ... just enough that the teeth break the surface of the paper. Well, Pete later told me that he does the same. Of course, he got this from me

    I don't think that there is a number for the amount of saw set. It depends on the wood. Experiment to find what works for you. Note that one layer of blue tape is 0.147mm thick, while copy paper is 0.05mm. The set of a Veritas dovetail saw is 0.07mm.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by derekcohen View Post
    I was part of that thread on SMC. My comment:

    I touched up a couple of dovetail saws last weekend. I emphasise "touched up". This is different from re-filing the teeth, changing their size or the angle of their rake. It was evident that the saws could cut more aggressively, that is, the teeth were dulling. I am about to begin a new build, and all the tools I use are tuned up beforehand.

    Looking at the tips of the teeth it was possible to see a little light reflecting. I was using magnifiers to see this. This pointed to a very fine amount of wear.

    I did not joint the teeth - they did not appear to need it. The teeth were coplanar still. So all I did was maintain the same rake angle and take one stroke across the face of each tooth. That was enough to remove all the reflected light. It may need to be jointed next sharpening. For now it is cutting very sweetly.

    I suspect that Warren and Pete are referring to two different processes. Warren appears to be referring to the process for maintaining a reasonably sharp (but dulling) set of teeth (edit - sharpening without jointing), while Pete is referring to the process to follow when filing a new plate, or resharpening a noticeably dull set of teeth (edit - recommending jointing first). They are both relevant process that I use.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Pete's going to be held to the white collar standard, too, which means that some white collar guy (OK, I'm a white collar guy - most of us probably are) will get the saw after he sharpens it, pull up a picture on google from Daryl Weir and then look at his teeth, then get out a straight edge and check height.

    I get what his issue is, but I think he's lost context because he's busy sharpening saws that way - he has to as a matter of business. If you ever have a discussion about sharpening with david charlesworth, you'll hear "musts" and "never seens" from David (like he and Rob C claiming they've seen a sum total of two irons properly sharpened by someone else at a class of theirs in their entire careers).

    The thing that started me down this road years ago was laziness, but also touching up a saw that wasn't perfect and realizing that it was still quite nice to use. If someone sent me a saw to sharpen, I could never send it out the way I left that saw, but I still haven't jointed it.

    All of this is just another nuance that is difficult to communicate with someone who hasn't done the same thing you have or I have. If someone just cut joinery, I would guess that half the time, they would also offer up that a saw must be jointed and maybe repeat some things they've seen elsewhere. I'm not immune from doing things the hard way. I filed new teeth at just over 2 tpi into a frame saw blade.......twice. I've filed a lot of other new teeth in, but refurbishing and building saws gives an odd view of what one must do in the context of work.

    I wouldn't give up touching up my most commonly used saws on a regular basis because two hours into a session working by hand, you start to get irritated by things that aren't good. Not by things that are good, but things that are below good because you've put them off. You also end up, by laziness, trying things and finding out that some are no good (i've faffed with just about every sharpening method there is because I do a fair amount of sharpening - did much more before using the double iron, but still sharpen a couple of planes at least each multi hour session and if that can be 90 seconds instead of 5 minutes with no loss of functionality, it will be 90 seconds).

    I'm not the historical reader that some are, and I guess at this point, I really don't have a good suggestion for a beginner regarding what they should do with a saw other than very simplified scenarios (such as, I wouldn't have a beginner joint the hell out of a set of crosscut saw teeth, cut them back in and refile them - they're very unlikely to end up with even teeth. I would encourage them to set the file in slightly dull but well shaped teeth and attempt to file what's already there with one stroke per tooth concentrating on keeping the pressure even. Little harm would come from that. Which is what touching up ends up being. As little as needed, as often as the saw tells you that it needs it. If the beginner says they're going to work entirely by hand (which I hear a lot, but I don't see the proof of happening very often), I'd tell them they'll be wasting their time jointing. If they were someone with fabulous machinery who cut dovetails and M&T and they insisted on jointing, I'd have to say "do what you prefer. Try not to let the teeth corrode between uses". Point of the historical reading, though, is that in this case, it looks like Pete has collected things that are favorable to his opinion that I couldn't begin to make sense of in warren's context - or my context (I'm not warren - occasionally, I do use a drill press, drum sander, cordless drill and thickness planer. I rarely use powered saws on solid wood, though, and sometimes not on plywood if the plywood is good quality (mostly wood and little glue).

    I guess this is an improvement from the threads where half of the posters argue that you can't sharpen your own saws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by derekcohen View Post
    For setting a saw, I use a technique from Mike Wenzloff, who made a number of saws for me. My variation is also used (although I did not know this at the time I started) by my good friend, Pete Taran .... and just when I thought I had added something new

    The saw is first set with a pistol setter. I like the Ellipse #77 or a Stanley #42X.

    Mike offered this method (using paper as a depth stop to even the set) ....



    I did not have a smooth-sided metal vise, and so I wrapped copy paper or blue tape (for deeper set) around the plate, placed the saw plate on the flat cast iron top of my bandsaw, and then tapped the teeth gently with a steel gennou ... just enough that the teeth break the surface of the paper. Well, Pete later told me that he does the same. Of course, he got this from me

    I don't think that there is a number for the amount of saw set. It depends on the wood. Experiment to find what works for you. Note that one layer of blue tape is 0.147mm thick, while copy paper is 0.05mm. The set of a Veritas dovetail saw is 0.07mm.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    I remember Mike posting that, and not only is it good for general setting, but if you have to set a saw up to do something very specific (like a dovetail saw set to saw fret slots), it's a very good technique. A couple of thousandths too much or too little in a fret slot is toxic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McNulty View Post
    I prefer to joint every time.
    What I don’t hear a lot of is side dressing, which I do lightly. Gives me a nice straight edge of the cut timber.
    Interested in other thoughts on this
    Alan
    It depends on what the saw is for and how evenly set. I generally run a fine cutting stone over the edges of the teeth to feel for one that's sticking up, but don't remove too much with a stone otherwise. Not necessarily for straight cutting, though, but to remove the damage that a snag tooth does (blowing out the back side of the cut and leaving an ugly cut surface).

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