Thread: Kerfing Plane

Originally Posted by section1

I wish there was a way to reply without quotes anyway, yes the large frame saw. I was very fortunate then to have received mine. I know he had some personal issues to deal with and his back orders got out of control but I had no idea he was stiffing people. I know it took many months for two screws to arrive because I couldn't find anyone to make me a pair. At one point I thought they would never arrive. I was stiffed $100 for them, but never again. Buying from the US isn't worth it anymore, the shipping fees are just too much.

They say he's back on track, some consultant has taught him how to run the business and be on top of his orders. I don't exactly know what his story is, at one point I heard his wife passed away and he's left with a small son to fend for whilst going through the pains of grieving. I don't know if any of that is accurate. But I'm reluctant to buy from him again even though my heart goes out to him, I just don't want to potentially throw my money away. I did email him several times and he never responded not even once. So, as they say money doesn't grow on trees and Aussies need to pull their finger's out and start manufacturing like the US. I would rather buy from someone in my home country than the US

I'm not sure what personal issues he may have had as none of those were mentioned. What the guy from Union seemed to be stuck on was suppliers. I guess most folks would've assumed isaac was making the parts, and I don't know what the details really were- how much were contract made and then resold. but apparently during covid, some of the suppliers either lost capacity to keep up with orders or canceled arrangements or something along those lines.

the discussion of orders never filled goes back about 2 years. The attitude from the union guy that it wasn't fair to expect small businesses to fill their orders is what put me off. I think I may have ordered screws from isaac somewhere in the distant past - there may have been some delay, but not much. That's long long in the past.

Before I made my frame saw, I actually had a back and forth forum discussion with isaac and I always liked that he was looking to make good stuff and not just stuff, so to see the lack of orders being filled was a surprise - brought to my attention a year or so ago when I suggested someone buy parts from him if they didnt' want to make a frame saw and their response was "already tried, never got the order filled".

For whatever reason, Isaac left his webpage up but provided no phone or address, he may have felt like he needed the money on continuing orders - but no communication, everyone is guessing and at some point, it goes over the line. how long does that continue if nobody says anything 4 or 5 years?

I know less about isaac at this point, but know that I don't care for Rob Porter at all. he is apparently worse offline but ran into some guy who instead decided to post his DMs and transcribe phone calls.

Hopefully, isaac will get things straightened out and fill orders 100% of the time or close - Porter's involvement in my opinion made it seem less likely that would happen. New products could be sold through another business, using that as an excuse to sell things like the accuburr and then tell people calling (as they were instructed to) union tool instead of isaac to request refunds only to be told "well, I'll bring it up, but I don't have access to blackburn's books, so no guarantees".

Grieving for a few months or even the better part of a year and maybe asking the community for help would be perfectly acceptable in my view. things seem to have gone well past that and only the threat of the state getting wind of sideways business by turning to the mediator brought some kind of immediate action.

1095 spring in the US can be bought pretty reasonable, going back to my own first point - and the brackets holding a blade need only be some drill rod and sheet metal and a couple of bolts. making ones' own takes about four hours total from end to end, including filing a new plate - and avoids all of the trouble. it's, of course, cheaper, but not everyone cares about that. files and parts, all in, and I am at about $60 for each saw (a three and four foot saw - wish I hadn't wasted time making a three foot saw, but hard to know that without having it in hand).

Originally Posted by D.W.

I'm not sure what personal issues he may have had as none of those were mentioned. What the guy from Union seemed to be stuck on was suppliers. I guess most folks would've assumed isaac was making the parts, and I don't know what the details really were- how much were contract made and then resold. but apparently during covid, some of the suppliers either lost capacity to keep up with orders or canceled arrangements or something along those lines.

the discussion of orders never filled goes back about 2 years. The attitude from the union guy that it wasn't fair to expect small businesses to fill their orders is what put me off. I think I may have ordered screws from isaac somewhere in the distant past - there may have been some delay, but not much. That's long long in the past.

Before I made my frame saw, I actually had a back and forth forum discussion with isaac and I always liked that he was looking to make good stuff and not just stuff, so to see the lack of orders being filled was a surprise - brought to my attention a year or so ago when I suggested someone buy parts from him if they didnt' want to make a frame saw and their response was "already tried, never got the order filled".

For whatever reason, Isaac left his webpage up but provided no phone or address, he may have felt like he needed the money on continuing orders - but no communication, everyone is guessing and at some point, it goes over the line. how long does that continue if nobody says anything 4 or 5 years?

I know less about isaac at this point, but know that I don't care for Rob Porter at all. he is apparently worse offline but ran into some guy who instead decided to post his DMs and transcribe phone calls.

Hopefully, isaac will get things straightened out and fill orders 100% of the time or close - Porter's involvement in my opinion made it seem less likely that would happen. New products could be sold through another business, using that as an excuse to sell things like the accuburr and then tell people calling (as they were instructed to) union tool instead of isaac to request refunds only to be told "well, I'll bring it up, but I don't have access to blackburn's books, so no guarantees".

Grieving for a few months or even the better part of a year and maybe asking the community for help would be perfectly acceptable in my view. things seem to have gone well past that and only the threat of the state getting wind of sideways business by turning to the mediator brought some kind of immediate action.

1095 spring in the US can be bought pretty reasonable, going back to my own first point - and the brackets holding a blade need only be some drill rod and sheet metal and a couple of bolts. making ones' own takes about four hours total from end to end, including filing a new plate - and avoids all of the trouble. it's, of course, cheaper, but not everyone cares about that. files and parts, all in, and I am at about $60 for each saw (a three and four foot saw - wish I hadn't wasted time making a three foot saw, but hard to know that without having it in hand).

So Derek after all you said I can't help but wonder how does he stay in business. I'm glad I bought the kit and saw when I did as the parts are truly first class even though I paid a fortune for it.

I often wondered though how would a 3ft saw feel in my hand. Shanon Rogers reckons they're a waste of time that you're better off with a 4ft as you 'll get through the work faster. Since I've been using a 4ft for I think a couple of years now I'm not using the whole blade due to the work piece moving around on me all the time and the saw just trenches itself in about 1/2 way length of the saw. Sometimes I try to lift the saw a bit and then I get full length cuts but it's heavy and tiresome to maintain. It's always easier to use and maintain the course when someone helps you than it is doing it on your own,

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

S1

The bandsaw does get used, mainly when a table saw can't get enough depth of cut. It is also shoe horned into an awkward position within my shed and that slightly restricts the usage. It is ear marked for much more use in the future.

I will look into a new blade on my return from hols. In the meantime I would suggest you gently file back the rake on the leading edge of the teeth for about the first couple of inches. Just file a little at a time and see if you can detect any improvement. It would be best to do this with a flat file having a safe edge. Alternatively, you could grind the teeth off a conventional file, but you do need something with fine teeth (warding file type?). Just watch that you don't lower the toothline too much or you will have to joint them as well. Or.... just wait for the new blade.

Hang on to that kerfing saw as I will make up one when the time comes and copy your design anyway. Firstly, I have to make the frame saw from the components you gave me. I have a crosscut logging blade I will cut down for that purpose. I don't know when I will do that as it falls into the "fun" project category and such things are frowned upon when urgent projects are backing up in the pipeline.

Regards
Paul

I found a saw blade under my bench that you can have. It’s 31 3/4” x 2” x 0.045”
It has a shark tooth configuration. This forum is t mobile phone friendly so I’ll post a pic of it when I get a chance to sit behind a computer

Originally Posted by section1

I found a saw blade under my bench that you can have. It’s 31 3/4” x 2” x 0.045”
It has a shark tooth configuration. This forum is t mobile phone friendly so I’ll post a pic of it when I get a chance to sit behind a computer

It sounds interesting. I will await the pic.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

It sounds interesting. I will await the pic.

Regards
Paul

IMG_4049.jpg

Originally Posted by section1

So Derek after all you said I can't help but wonder how does he stay in business. I'm glad I bought the kit and saw when I did as the parts are truly first class even though I paid a fortune for it.

I often wondered though how would a 3ft saw feel in my hand. Shanon Rogers reckons they're a waste of time that you're better off with a 4ft as you 'll get through the work faster. Since I've been using a 4ft for I think a couple of years now I'm not using the whole blade due to the work piece moving around on me all the time and the saw just trenches itself in about 1/2 way length of the saw. Sometimes I try to lift the saw a bit and then I get full length cuts but it's heavy and tiresome to maintain. It's always easier to use and maintain the course when someone helps you than it is doing it on your own,

>>So Derek <<

ouch!!

I don't know the answer in terms of staying in business except he's greatly aided by paypal's 6 month refund policy, and the whole thing may not be intentional on his part, but taking orders while not filling others definitely isn't unintentional and the whole union tools suggesting all refund requests go to them is strange - looks like a diversion. there's a myth here that you can't get any legal recourse without going to the state or living in the state where the business is or you have to go to court. I proposed people just file a request for mediation with the attorney general to get it on their radar if this is something like 100 or in the 100s (probably the latter) and Porter lost his mind - but he was already lathered up responding to a guy who "dared" to post that he never got his order and never got a refund because "it just hurts small business and favors huge companies sitting on a mountain of cash like lie nielsen". An odd take!

There's a problem in the ww community that when someone gets stiffed, if chris schwarz or someone is touting a boutique tool maker, it takes a very long time before there is recognition beyond a couple of people that things are going awry. Obviously, there's a pretty clear case that has been on this board (but not CS endorsed) for years, and now you can get the original harold and saxon chisels in the US from time to time, brand new. I think all of us would rather just see the folks operate straight or have a chance to make amends rather than see people go out of business.

As for the saws, actually, isaac's display of clamping wood with several clamps convinced me to use a leg vise. The wood has to stay still and not rotate despite a heavy saw and aggressive teeth, or progress is slow. I tried as issac showed - clamps at the bottom and top of the bench, but it was arduous to constantly adjust them - a leg vise is the answer for the four foot saw. Mines just over 2 tpi - I think 2 1/4 or 2 3/8 - if things aren't tight, it does just what you say - push the workpiece over rather than saw.

the three foot saw is more like less than a full stroke, I wanted to use one with finer teeth, but you really need two operators if you have narrow set and fine teeth because you can't steer the saw from the back handle like you can with bigger teeth. And the stroke is a large fraction of 36", but you can't take the full one without banging into the saw fixtures. with a coarse blade, you wish you had the four so you could take a full stroke and into your mind has to creep "the narrower stuff, is it just as fast to use the hand saw?" most of the time, yes. If the wood is wide enough for the bigger saw, it's faster, and if it's narrow enough you can't use the 4 foot saw, then it cuts quickly with a hand saw and workholding is easier and no tensioning a saw.

Originally Posted by D.W.

>>So Derek <<

ouch!!


As for the saws, actually, isaac's display of clamping wood with several clamps convinced me to use a leg vise. The wood has to stay still and not rotate despite a heavy saw and aggressive teeth, or progress is slow. I tried as issac showed - clamps at the bottom and top of the bench, but it was arduous to constantly adjust them - a leg vise is the answer for the four foot saw. Mines just over 2 tpi - I think 2 1/4 or 2 3/8 - if things aren't tight, it does just what you say - push the workpiece over rather than saw.

Forgive me I never meant anything sinister when I wrote "So Derek."

I was taken back when I read you have a 2 tpi saw. I don't believe I would even be able to push such a saw through the work. I remember watching an old video of yours a few years ago when you first made the smaller saw, not sure what size it was and you were sawing through effortlessly. That video convinced to build myself one. There is no regret other than selling my bandsaw because I truly believed that I would with that saw cut through wood like butter. Well, I was wrong.

Originally Posted by section1

..... I truly believed that I would with that saw cut through wood like butter. Well, I was wrong.....

Well, not necessarily, S1. There are a few things that make a big difference to sawing. The first is, of course, the wood itself, softer, straight-grained woods are obviously going to be easier than a chunk of gnarly red gum.

My experience with thin, tensioned saw blades is pretty much restricted to bowsaws, but I do like my bowsaws & have built up a lot of experience with them over the years, with several different sizes of frame & many combinations of blade thickness, width & tpi.

The (rough) rule of thumb is that the gullets need to be large enough to hold the sawdust through the width of what you are sawing, so the wider the piece you are sawing, the larger the gullets need to be. However, the fewer teeth you have contacting wood, the deeper they bite, which is good until it takes more force to move the saw than your arms can comfortably supply. But the greater the tpi the more cutting edges are engaged with the wood, so as long as their gullets aren't filling excessively during the stroke, more (sharp) teeth can actually cut wood as fast or faster. If you want to go into competitive resawing, you need to size the teeth to the material for maximum efficiency.

Then there is the question of blade width, the wider the blade, the easier it is to keep straight (& the more difficult to correct if it does go astray), but the more drag it causes. You can reduce drag by increasing set, but that means more energy input (to saw a wider kerf), and increased steering problems. There are all these trade-offs to consider, and no one blade or saw size is going to do all resawing jobs with the same speed & efficiency.

With a powered bandsaw you don't notice all this so much because you can use brute force to compensate for blades not being well-matched to the depth of cut or wood type (I push the friendship with mine all the time!). But of course, there are limits and you soon discover them - forcing a blade that is dull or too fine/too narrow though a deep cut can result in some wild & wonderful results (damhik!).

I'm in David's camp on this one, I mostly use my Disston 5-3 ripsaw when hand resawing is required, often when the width is more than the saw likes to manage. It's not ideal, & nowhere near as fast as the 'right' framesaw in practised hands would be, but I'm well-used to handsaws, which only need a single operator. I struggle to use a framesaw on my own & have problems keeping the darned thing straight, even when I pre-kerf, so about the only time mine has been used is to demonstrate it to someone. I take my hat off to anyone persistent enough to become competent with framesaws..

Cheers

Originally Posted by IanW

The (rough) rule of thumb is that the gullets need to be large enough to hold the sawdust through the width of what you are sawing, so the wider the piece you are sawing, the larger the gullets need to be.



Cheers

Ian

I was a little confused when the width of the board was mentioned in an earlier post in conjunction with cutting capability. I couldn't see how that mattered. Are you meaning the thickness? I know width comes into it if cutting a wide board close to one edge as the frame may not allow clearance on the other side, but I don't think that was the reference here.

Otherwise, I am missing something.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

I was a little confused when the width of the board was mentioned in an earlier post in conjunction with cutting capability. I couldn't see how that mattered. Are you meaning the thickness? I know width comes into it if cutting a wide board close to one edge as the frame may not allow clearance on the other side, but I don't think that was the reference here.l

Pretty sure Ian is definitely referring to board width as that dictates how many teeth can be engaged in a resaw cut; the wider the board the less TPI you can get away with.

Originally Posted by Chief Tiff

Pretty sure Ian is definitely referring to board width as that dictates how many teeth can be engaged in a resaw cut; the wider the board the less TPI you can get away with.

Chief

Ok. I am stating to think orientation here. I was imagining a board with the flat surface facing. I think you are envisioning a board sitting on the edge. I would still describe that as either thickness in the horizontal plane or depth in the vertical plane. The rule of thumb seems to be a minimum of four teeth in contact with the timber and preferably six teeth. it is also why starting the cut can be difficult and the progressive tooth pattern is found on better quality, older saws.

Relaxing the rake on the first teeth will also help.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by IanW

Well, not necessarily, S1. There are a few things that make a big difference to sawing. The first is, of course, the wood itself, softer, straight-grained woods are obviously going to be easier than a chunk of gnarly red gum.

My experience with thin, tensioned saw blades is pretty much restricted to bowsaws, but I do like my bowsaws & have built up a lot of experience with them over the years, with several different sizes of frame & many combinations of blade thickness, width & tpi.

The (rough) rule of thumb is that the gullets need to be large enough to hold the sawdust through the width of what you are sawing, so the wider the piece you are sawing, the larger the gullets need to be. However, the fewer teeth you have contacting wood, the deeper they bite, which is good until it takes more force to move the saw than your arms can comfortably supply. But the greater the tpi the more cutting edges are engaged with the wood, so as long as their gullets aren't filling excessively during the stroke, more (sharp) teeth can actually cut wood as fast or faster. If you want to go into competitive resawing, you need to size the teeth to the material for maximum efficiency.

Then there is the question of blade width, the wider the blade, the easier it is to keep straight (& the more difficult to correct if it does go astray), but the more drag it causes. You can reduce drag by increasing set, but that means more energy input (to saw a wider kerf), and increased steering problems. There are all these trade-offs to consider, and no one blade or saw size is going to do all resawing jobs with the same speed & efficiency.

With a powered bandsaw you don't notice all this so much because you can use brute force to compensate for blades not being well-matched to the depth of cut or wood type (I push the friendship with mine all the time!). But of course, there are limits and you soon discover them - forcing a blade that is dull or too fine/too narrow though a deep cut can result in some wild & wonderful results (damhik!).

I'm in David's camp on this one, I mostly use my Disston 5-3 ripsaw when hand resawing is required, often when the width is more than the saw likes to manage. It's not ideal, & nowhere near as fast as the 'right' framesaw in practised hands would be, but I'm well-used to handsaws, which only need a single operator. I struggle to use a framesaw on my own & have problems keeping the darned thing straight, even when I pre-kerf, so about the only time mine has been used is to demonstrate it to someone. I take my hat off to anyone persistent enough to become competent with framesaws..

Cheers

Thanks IanW I always appreciate your input, same with DW and Bushmiller. I always learn something new from you guys. I know in many occasions a handsaw would suffice but ironically what I’m about to say next coming from someone who promotes hand tool work I hate resawing by hand. I truly didn’t mind it at all when I was younger and slimmer but now I just dread the thought. Same with ripping. Those two things just drain the living life out of me.

Keeping any saw straight during the cut is a challenge but like anything the more you do it the easier it becomes. There are only two things to look out for to successfully saw straight. Start the cut plumb and straight and then micro adjust whilst sawing. That’s all there is to it. Of course body posture and all that plays a role. Also slow down and examine it as you are cutting. Speed is not the key to success that always comes later on. One last thing having a sharp saw is great definitely but having it set correctly plays a big part. LN saw cuts beautifully because they are set correctly. Bob Rozieski made a ripsaw for me and she cuts like a dream. Paul sold me several saws over the years and they all sawed wonderfully until I had to sharpen and set the teeth and tnow hey perform mediocre. Sharpening and setting a saw isn’t my forte but you as a sawmaker it would be. That’s my two pennies worth. You probably knew all this anyway.

Paul, I always think of 'width' of a board as the widest face & 'thickness is the lesser of the two sides (which doesn't work so well when it's square.. ) - as Chief said more or less. Anyway, we are talking re-sawing, which generally implies sawing the wider dimension. The "minimum 4 teeth in the cut" rule is a very old & useful maxim (though like you say, 6 is probably more comfortable most of the time) & well worth pointing out. Once you start using saws you soon develop an intuition for the size of tooth & length of blade any particular job calls for, which is fine when you can select from a good range of saws, but not many folks would have anything like the choices you & I have, so they have to battle on with whatever might be close.

S1 - I'm getting uncomfortably close to becoming an octogenarian & can't say I relish the thought of spending an hour or more hand-sawing boards any more (if I ever did). Apart from the physical side, it's dead-boring & wastes time I could be spending doing far more enjoyable parts of the project. I happily burn electrons for that job when I can, only doing the sort of heroic sawing I showed above when it's the only option.

And yep, I was either instructed in most of the points you list very early on, or learnt them the 'hard' way. The two most important things on your list imo are sharp (& properly-set) saws and practice.

Sharpening saws is certainly not everyone's cup of tea. To be really good at it you need be blessed with a natural gift or do a LOT of it. The demise of the saw-doc is a very sad thing - it was so good to just drop off a few saws & pick them up a week later, beautifully sharp & ready to go. It took me quite a while to become semi-competent, but I don't do enough regularly to be anywhere near as good as the old bloke that used to do my saws 35 years ago - I sure miss him.

Cheers,

I sure do enjoy the quietness of hand tools but it's mostly the sense of accomplishment that kept me loyal to them. Even when I'd rip and resaw several boards in a day and then plane them most of the time s4s I would feel satisfaction on one hand and a sense of achievement in the other, but there still is that inner voice in me that say's congratulations you just blew an entire day. When I sell the item that I made everybody is happy that it is unique, that has the signature of a truly handmade product because two products are not identical they are immensly happy, but no one is willing to pay what a handmade product is worth. So, I keep reminding myself what Tony Konovaloff said in his book "Chisel, Mallet, Plane and Saw" "What I make for others is for them, how I make it is for me."