Thread: Kerfing Plane

I've filed three separate blades with those big teeth now, though - I should mention that it's a technically easy thing to do because the teeth are so big. Much less physical work, but more demanding to file even small teeth from scratch on a really fine cutting dovetail saw.

But physically, the work to file 11 feet of toothline into a blank plate and then another three feet of finer teeth in another one....definitely sucks!! it's about like planing wood. It's made possible for cheap here by the fact that there's the odd lot of 8" files, sometimes even heavy taper - on ebay - and nobody really buys them.

the first lot of heavy taper 8" files I found was $25, USA made, 12 of them for $25. they are *hogs* and would be a good candidate for a forged chisel blank, but I threw away half a dozen that I dulled before starting to make chisels.

At top of mind, because I just found another lot of 6 USA made regular taper 8" files for $19 total on ebay. For a toolmaker, even having those to file metal in any case or safe edge or whatever, they'll find use and be worn out one way or another.

I blew out three heavy taper files on each large plate, though. Affordable thanks to the finding, but not cheap files if you have to buy them new at retail from a supplier. the first 10 foot coil of .042" 1095 4" tall was $68. I stupidly made the first saw plate and gave away the remaining 6 feet of coil and had to buy a 12x36" plate for the smaller saw and deal with the PITA of cutting the plate. Not sure if it's still the case, but 1095 went far up in price between the two purchases for reasons I'll never know.

DW

The files you found on eBay, were they new or used? I tried looking them up and all I get are chainsaw files. I actually don't have a file to sharpen these teeth.

Prior to making the kerfing plane I would angle the wood in the vice and that helped quite a bit in terms of stopping the teeth from being grabby. It would also aid in tracking straight.

Everything has gone up in price and I simply cannot to pay what they want. My supplier this morning sent me a quote of $75 per linieal metre for jellutong 1 1/4" x 12" plus 80 for use of the bandsaw. I thought she was joking. Two years ago I paid $38 per LM. Wood is now gold.

Originally Posted by section1

..... "What I make for others is for them, how I make it is for me.".....

I like that - it's a good way to look at it.

The topic of just what "hand made" is comes up regularly on forums like ours - it's one of those questions that's as impossible to answer as it is for anyone to determine just how much manual work went into a finished product. As an example, you could use powered saws to prepare all your wood, clean up with hand-planes & you are the only person who can ever know for sure exactly how the wood got from rough lumber to the final product.

I vaguely remember someone (auscab?) once saying something like using machines for the donkey work on parts that will never be seen, or will be further processed with hand tools, can speed up the work with no sacrifice whatever to quality. You can put the time saved into the bank, or spend it on details that will be seen (& that you can call the customer's attention to ).

I get the same feeling of satisfaction in being able to do something to an acceptable level using hand tools only, and my use of powered tools for woodwork is pretty much limited to the tablesaw nowadays. There are a couple I avoid like the plague ('lectric routers I detest above all!), but if time was money I think I'd change some of my attitudes real quick! What matters most to me in the final analysis is a pleasing design that is structurally sound & fit for purpose - "how I make it is for me"....

Cheers,
Ian

Originally Posted by section1

DW

The files you found on eBay, were they new or used? I tried looking them up and all I get are chainsaw files. I actually don't have a file to sharpen these teeth.

Prior to making the kerfing plane I would angle the wood in the vice and that helped quite a bit in terms of stopping the teeth from being grabby. It would also aid in tracking straight.

Everything has gone up in price and I simply cannot to pay what they want. My supplier this morning sent me a quote of $75 per linieal metre for jellutong 1 1/4" x 12" plus 80 for use of the bandsaw. I thought she was joking. Two years ago I paid $38 per LM. Wood is now gold.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/175864117023

The files are one-time listings on ebay. It's not uncommon to see 8" files, but they are often slim taper, which aren't really necessary to have (for me). it's the 8 reg taper and bigger that I will look for out there.

They're new. Sometimes they are old stock USA and sometimes they are probably one off or unclaimed freight type stuff sold by flea marketers. I know the market of such things there would be smaller, but you can always set up a saved search on ebay. If the files are $10 each, I don't bother. if they get to $5 or below, then I usually pick them up - mex or american, either way. I think I used heavy taper 7" mex files (another oddball) on the last plate and used a lot more than 3, but it's not uncommon for the lots of mex files to be $22 with shipping for a dozen.

Yesterday morning while looking in general at new listings, there was one of 4 xx slim mex nicholsons for $20 including shipping for the dozen, so of course, I also bought a dozen of those.

I don't remember seeing so many listings of cheap dozens of files cast off when they were US made - at least not in sizes that a saw sharpener would use - sometimes in huge quantities, but also made the mistake at the beginning of seeing these believing they were stock listings that would never go away.

the 8 extra heavy taper that I got in a dozen for $25 was a long time ago, but again only survived at that time because nobody wants a file that coarse (wide with robust edges) with the fairly coarse single cut tooth count that comes with it. Made the same assumption at the time, that I'd probably see those on the regular but with intermittent looking, haven't since.

1095 here is all over the place - mcmaster suddenly has it marked back down to $85 for a 10 foot section of .042", and another supplier wants $335 for the same thing. it's a crap shoot. Mcmaster's prices fluctuate probably based on their cost, and the fluctuation can be significant, especially on stuff like brass (which is generally never affordable there in the first place). They always list the origin, too, and for 1095 sheets and coils, it's generally china or india (in this case, it's india).

the whole debacle over covid seems to have created a "I'll ask anything I want" kind of scenario both at retail and middlemen - sometimes there is no listing like mcmaster's and then the shopper is left to wander listings waiting for someone to unload one-off material or something inconvenient but usable. With the 4" coil, all that's needed is introducing the edge to a belt sander to get rid of the hard layer on the mill run and then it's down to cutting to length and filing teeth in.

IanW
Oh I 100% agree but going back a few years I was a purest. I admit I would use a bandsaw for all my ripping and resawing but a tablesaw I absolutely don't see a need for and that also applies to a jointer except for a thicknesser.
So a bandsaw, thicknesser and a pedestal drill is more than enough for anyone who likes to work by hand.

DW thanks for the link I just sent him an email if he is willing to ship it to Oz.

You're right about covid prices, people think they have a golden goose and people are ready to pay whatever their asking. It's wrong oh so wrong.

I didn't notice that he had more than one - just looking early morning.

Let me know what he says, because if he doesn't ship to oz, I'm wiping out the rest of them.

OHHHH...I just read the bottom of that listing and it's for *one* file, not for the five shown.

Nothing special about it - I thought it was $15 for five. I had several listings in my watch list and got the terms between some of them mixed up.

Forget that I mentioned that one!

Originally Posted by D.W.

OHHHH...I just read the bottom of that listing and it's for *one* file, not for the five shown.

Nothing special about it - I thought it was $15 for five. I had several listings in my watch list and got the terms between some of them mixed up.

Forget that I mentioned that one!

He never bothered to respond.

Originally Posted by section1

He never bothered to respond.

Not a surprise. I'm trying to get and English seller to respond. It's always hit or miss.

Much better deals pop up than 15 per one, though. My fault for not checking the listing before bidding.

Hi all
Lovely kerfing saw but have few questions - Feel free not to answer them all- seems I am having a curious about kerfingn saw moment

Making the blade
The saw blade looks like it was pre drilled and then the teeth cut out, is this the case?

I assume the large gullets is intentional to clear the chips, how well is that working?

As the teeth are pretty course - is it difficult to start the plane?

Are the teeth rip or cross cut filed?

Is the set keep fairly tight?


And not quite out of questions- but a tight fit for the saw from the leaf is desirable. Anyone have any thoughts on how a tapered blade with 45 degree flem would preform?

I haven't rip cut recently with 77 style saws I have but memory says they are pretty decent at rip cutting

I have an old wood plough that I do not have blades for that I suspect could be repurposed to a kerfing saw, if I made a suitable blade.

Originally Posted by MartinCH

Hi all
Lovely kerfing saw but have few questions - Feel free not to answer them all- seems I am having a curious about kerfingn saw moment

Making the blade
The saw blade looks like it was pre drilled and then the teeth cut out, is this the case? Bushmiller made the saw blade for me

I assume the large gullets is intentional to clear the chips, how well is that working? Excellent

As the teeth are pretty course - is it difficult to start the plane? Yes

Are the teeth rip or cross cut filed? Rip

Is the set keep fairly tigh No, but just enough to stop it from binding


And not quite out of questions- but a tight fit for the saw from the leaf is desirable. Anyone have any thoughts on how a tapered blade with 45 degree flem would preform?

I haven't rip cut recently with 77 style saws I have but memory says they are pretty decent at rip cutting

I have an old wood plough that I do not have blades for that I suspect could be repurposed to a kerfing saw, if I made a suitable blade.Yes you can

Look for for your answers in the quote above.

Originally Posted by MartinCH

Hi all
Lovely kerfing saw but have few questions - Feel free not to answer them all- seems I am having a curious about kerfingn saw moment

Making the blade
The saw blade looks like it was pre drilled and then the teeth cut out, is this the case?

I assume the large gullets is intentional to clear the chips, how well is that working?

As the teeth are pretty course - is it difficult to start the plane?

Are the teeth rip or cross cut filed?

Is the set keep fairly tight?


And not quite out of questions- but a tight fit for the saw from the leaf is desirable. Anyone have any thoughts on how a tapered blade with 45 degree flem would preform?

I haven't rip cut recently with 77 style saws I have but memory says they are pretty decent at rip cutting

I have an old wood plough that I do not have blades for that I suspect could be repurposed to a kerfing saw, if I made a suitable blade.

Martin

I made up that blade and it replicates the blade supplied by Blackburn tools. I made it a while back and my memory is that I used a hacksaw to create the initial spacing, a chainsaw file to create the gullets and either a flat file with a safe edge or a triangular file to refine the angles (can't quite recall exactly which). There was no drilling, which would not be impossible but is still a little challenging in saw plate steel.

As Section 1 has said, it has proved difficult to start the cut and I will make up another blade in the same style but with smaller teeth for the first 50mm in conjunction with a relaxed rake. In fact it may end up looking like a cross between the original Blackburn saw and your Disston No.77, which also had small teeth at the start.

Disston No.77. 1918 Catalogue.jpg

This should make the cut easier, but it won't be until I return from holiday. In fact with your saw I have never quite understood the philosophy behind that configuration as it did not appear on their normal backsaw line. Perhaps it was to enable the saw to be started more easily with all the teeth in contact with the wood, which would be similar to S1's kerfing saw.

The deep gullets of the kerfing saw are required to contain sawdust from a toothline that doesn't really exit the cut.



Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Martin

I made up that blade and it replicates the blade supplied by Blackburn tools. I made it a while back and my memory is that I used a hacksaw to create the initial spacing, a chainsaw file to create the gullets and either a flat file with a safe edge or a triangular file to refine the angles (can't quite recall exactly which). There was no drilling, which would not be impossible but is still a little challenging in saw plate steel.

As Section 1 has said, it has proved difficult to start the cut and I will make up another blade in the same style but with smaller teeth for the first 50mm in conjunction with a relaxed rake. In fact it may end up looking like a cross between the original Blackburn saw and your Disston No.77, which also had small teeth at the start.

Disston No.77. 1918 Catalogue.jpg

This should make the cut easier, but it won't be until I return from holiday. In fact with your saw I have never quite understood the philosophy behind that configuration as it did not appear on their normal backsaw line. Perhaps it was to enable the saw to be started more easily with all the teeth in contact with the wood, which would be similar to S1's kerfing saw.

The deep gullets of the kerfing saw are required to contain sawdust from a toothline that doesn't really exit the cut.



Regards
Paul

Thanks Everyone

Reread the thread and noticed that the starting effort/ rip filing was already So a couple of questions I didn't need to ask if I said attention. Was curious about how the deep gullets where made. It would have taken alot of filing

Might try with cobalt drill bit and cut off disk and see what that achieves, likely a mess.

Heading off on tangent - not sure why there was smaller teeth on the later Disston 77. I ended filing 10 tpi as the saw is naturally quite smooth and found the high flem teeth easier to start, at larger TPI.

An item that I suspect with high flem teeth is that there is enough gap to the side of each tooth teeth to allow transport of sawdust from gullet to gullet. If true, (I don't know) it is a feature that might be handy in kerfing saw.

Regards