Thread: I like Lee Valley but this is sacrilegious

Kind of looks like they teamed up with IKEA[emoji849].

Cheers Matt.

Sad world we live in.
Regards
John

I would be willing to bet that the group of buyers of tools is made up mostly of people who don't use them, but rather who set up a shop and then that's sort of the end point.

Sort of acquiring and having rather than doing.

I grew up in the 70s-early 90s. Having a basement shop with some portable tools and maybe a small TS or 12" BS or something wasn't uncommon. DIY type stuff. Most of those shops were fairly little used, too.

I think one of the reasons that youtube and other places are really taking over in terms of seeking advice is because they cut to the chase - people want to imagine working, watch other people do it, buy the stuff, and then move on to the next thing. I'd be willing to bet, too, that LN and LV get a lot of calls from people asking why they don't make a till that would hold one of each of the saws they offer - or more.

15 or so years ago, we all got sort of the wrong idea about how much people were using tools just because new stuff was coming out left and right and people were asking about it. In the acquisition phase more or less, tinkering, and the fun wore off.

Setting up shop and then going to the shop only infrequently has been popular at least since norm.

perhaps what we're seeing is evidence of advanced society! We have the wealth to set up shops, buy stuff, have a hobby car (and a set-up car shop to work on cars, too) - that is, we've advanced from wishing and dreaming with nothing in hand to wishing and dreaming in a theme environment. We already have gobs of phenolic and plywood jig makers - which is the earrings and necklace to the purse that is setting up a stationary shop and not using it.

I am not really surprised to see workshop furniture being sold - as David mentioned, setting up and having a workshop is probably as common as using a workshop - but what does surprise me is the price. It has good materials, but is simple and CNC-made. Perhaps it needs to be high to have status? Or is this a reflection of the price of materials today (Lee Valley are not gougers).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by D.W.

15 or so years ago, we all got sort of the wrong idea about how much people were using tools just because new stuff was coming out left and right and people were asking about it. In the acquisition phase more or less, tinkering, and the fun wore off.

Setting up shop and then going to the shop only infrequently has been popular at least since norm.

perhaps what we're seeing is evidence of advanced society! We have the wealth to set up shops, buy stuff, have a hobby car (and a set-up car shop to work on cars, too) - that is, we've advanced from wishing and dreaming with nothing in hand to wishing and dreaming in a theme environment. We already have gobs of phenolic and plywood jig makers - which is the earrings and necklace to the purse that is setting up a stationary shop and not using it.

A quick look at the WWF Marketplace highlights how many woodies have got past the acquisition phase and are off-loading a lot of near unused tools and machinery for a host of reasons - mostly many have left the "user phase" until far too late in life and life has got in the way.

Originally Posted by Mobyturns

A quick look at the WWF Marketplace highlights how many woodies have got past the acquisition phase and are off-loading a lot of near unused tools and machinery for a host of reasons - mostly many have left the "user phase" until far too late in life and life has got in the way.

And so the same thing goes here, too. I am guilty of curiosity and thinking I'd actually use things or getting three of something and needing to unload two. But seeing what happens to people where they cling on to stuff like that until the last second, I want to rather have the size of the stuff around shrink as it becomes clear that it won't be used.

A rack like this is throw away money, but it's more like a service than a good. LV prevents you from spending a couple of hours on a saturday morning putting together a makeshift saw till. So long as you have the need and want for a saw till just like the one they've made.

As far as accumulating and unloading, all of us should probably keep accurate score of something that we buy being desirable by the time we sell it. It's often not the case.

that's pondering my part a little beyond the nesting stuff - but I think we'll be seeing more of this, an I think LV will not sell 100,000 units, but they'll sell enough to realize that this is a little sub-area that's underserved, often because people don't want to speak up and admit that they're really in it for the having and looking at part of the hobby.

it is a bit like paywalls on game apps, though - my son plays all of the nonsense that comes off of the google play store (he's turning 10 soon). He has gotten used to the fact that I won't give him money to get through paywalls. we have an instinct of some sort to acquire things to achieve our goals without thinking of what our goals are. I did that blindly early on. But in tools, buying your way past one level usually gets you into buying something more expensive the next level until you have to literally find more space, and then things get really expensive. On the games, the paywalls are just set up to identify which people will pay so that you can introduce them to more pay walls.

Actually making things is expensive and messy enough - though I have been in some very neat and orderly clean shops (i mean like spotless, where if there were two coffee cups in calculated places, both would have the handles turned the same way) - there just isn't much made in them, or what's made is another exercise in organizing.

I just envy the blokes who can a) have saws & other ferrous tools sitting out as conveniently as that without having them rust overnight, and b) can find the wall-space to put it!

And Derek - the price of decent quality ply IS becoming ridiculous. I bought a small sheet a few days ago for a drawer-bottom for LOML's new desk and nearly fell over when I saw the price come up on the register!

Cheers,

Originally Posted by D.W.

….
A rack like this is throw away money, but it's more like a service than a good. LV prevents you from spending a couple of hours on a saturday morning putting together a makeshift saw till. So long as you have the need and want for a saw till just like the one they've made.

…

David, I don’t think LV are stealing time from anyone who actually wants to built shop furniture. This is for those that are starting out and acquiring, and fearful of trying. It is just recognizing a need.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by IanW

I just envy the blokes who can a) have saws & other ferrous tools sitting out as conveniently as that without having them rust overnight, and b) can find the wall-space to put it!

Cheers,

Agreed! I’m building drawers into my bench for all of my hand tools and will have my saws laid on an internal lid so I can lock the saws to it double sided. Need to keep them well organised under cover than our on display like this. I’m using hardwood that I have on hand so I don’t have to buy any ply!

Perhaps we are reading this product wrong. It's a plywood and magnets saw-till for the cashed up and time-poor, or free plans for those who want to make it. You can use your Veritas saws to work out the scale in the photos and design from there. I do like the magnets design feature but either the magnets I buy are crappy, else there's an anomaly in the Earth's magnetic field over my workshop that means magnets don't hold things too well.

As to rust issues - I keep my saws on a tool wall and my planes in a chest because the latter seem more prone to dreaded rust even with Camelia oil on blades and 3in1 oil on bodies. For saws convenience of greater importance than risk of rust. The thing I notice about North American woodworkers on You-Tube is they run air conditioning all the time to regulate humidity to stabilise stored wood and rust prevention. Seems excessive to me.

Originally Posted by AnthonySeiver

The thing I notice about North American woodworkers on You-Tube is they run air conditioning all the time to regulate humidity to stabilise stored wood and rust prevention. Seems excessive to me.

& Aussies shutting down a couple of coal fired power stations will save the planet.

Originally Posted by AnthonySeiver

The thing I notice about North American woodworkers on You-Tube is they run air conditioning all the time to regulate humidity to stabilise stored wood and rust prevention. Seems excessive to me.

Youtube isn't really representative of what actually happens in the US. Most of us other than folks in the southwest and far west deal with a lot of humidity, and few have air conditioned shops.

The youtube video makers are essentially working in a studio so that they look nice. You can find people talking about having a shop with a split system here, but I don't actually see it - people work in a garage or a basement, and most of the wood other than for instrument makers just goes with the seasons. Seal the ends and all will generally be fine.

Dewpoint here in the summer is in the 60s (F) to mid 70s. This morning, it's 66F with a dewpoint of 64F, which means the air is pregnant with moisture. If it's warmer, those figures may be raised ten degrees. My shop is 1/2 underground, so the dewpoint stays the same but the temperature is lower and sometimes there is moisture on the floor from the water table or from A/C ducting running underfloor upstairs and dripping. When it's humid, it doesn't dry.

I have no trouble with rust. There are three reasons:
1) I switched to using oilstones long ago, that ended rust on chisels
2) any saw that's ever been used enough to be waxed has never rusted again. That's all of them at this point
3) if there is any tool that has surfaces that aren't waxed, a very thin coat of light colored shellac padded on is just fine. You can wipe it off later with an alcohol soaked rag. This will be few tools.

The boeshield and stuff above and beyond that peddled by everyone to get a reference revenue link is just people being pigs. Someone like Mark Spagnulo peddling some micro nano something or other rust preventative is just a person pretending to be friendly, but is in reality a greedy pig farming viewers.

Ditch the camelia oil - it's no better than mineral oil and probably less good than hydrotreated mineral oil that you can get from vet supply or commercial kitchen supply. Hydrotreated mineral oil will be stable for 50 years on something and not dry or oxidize, and once you're paying $20 a gallon instead of $30 a point, you can feel free to do things like use it to make a wipeable non-drying wax, or you can use mineral spirits and paraffin to make a wipeable drying wax that doesn't attract dirt and won't spoil finishes or penetrate anything.

Derek I agree

I remember when I built my current shooting board. Without a table saw to ease the precise parallel cuts... I think I spent so much time on it that when I saw what LV were selling their pre-made ones for I thought, I wish I'd bought that and used my day on another project.

Really with magnets, fixings, wastage from ply... eh I mean I like cooking but sometimes I also just like to eat out?

Originally Posted by derekcohen

David, I don’t think LV are stealing time from anyone who actually wants to built shop furniture. This is for those that are starting out and acquiring, and fearful of trying. It is just recognizing a need.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

David, I don’t think LV are stealing time from anyone who actually wants to built shop furniture. This is for those that are starting out and acquiring, and fearful of trying. It is just recognizing a need.

Regards from Perth

Derek

This interpretation is backwards. LV isn't stealing anything from anyone - they are preventing someone who doesn't actually want to spend time in the shop making something from having to do that. I've got no issue with the thing, nor with the cost of baltic birch and the fact they'll take it back if someone doesn't like it, the price.

My entire point is that there's a small minority of woodworkers who get out to the shop often and use their shop and the shop maybe is a mess of some degree with dust or tools strewn about. The majority, including the ones who do most of the buying, are reading about woodworking, planning, traveling to talk about it, etc instead of thinking "ghee, if I travel to a woodworking event on the weekend, it's stealing my actual time in the shop".

It's one of two human flaws - that imagining and planning without doing much is the same as doing. The other is that worrying is the same as fixing a problem and that the tiredness from worrying or fretting is somehow productive and provides relief from guilt. The latter is troublesome. Many people find pleasure in the former - if they do, let them eat cake...
....or buy shop fixtures.

A former coworker of mine would flatly say (with lots of Fs) "if you wanted to be in the shop building something you'd be there doing it". Lots of people say they want to work in the shop but they don't know what to do or make. It leads to folks on forums apologizing for buying a $5000 pre-made bench instead of just being able to say "I like to buy the stuff for my shop rather than make it". And a lot of people chiding anyone who buys stuff for their shop as not being a real woodworker, as if any of us are putting food on the table or doing anything more than playing.

productivity for furniture or tools here and almost everywhere is looking on craigslist or whatever the current iteration is, finding stuff for 5 cents on the dollar and spending a morning cleaning and refinishing. What we do is play. It costs more than the craigslist method, and for some reason results in a lot of hand wringing and trying to wring others hands about how they spend their time and money.