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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomartomau View Post
    .......Lie Neilsen website seems not operational.


    The Oz site is working as per normal when I tried it 5min ago. And it looks like they have most of the Core 1 bench planes in stock.

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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodPixel View Post
    I saved this intensely illuminating video after it advised by another member.

    It is, or was to me, an excellent intro as to why the blade bevel is designed as it is. It also highlights some of the downfalls of BU planes.

    Personally I really like BU planes. They look modern and they fit my fat hands well. They pack away nicely and I enjoy to ease of setup. BUT these are personal, and probably not very rational!

    It also shows some of the reasoning behind the LN/V brigades and why each group may choose as they do (??).

    It would be wise to watch this vid:

    This conversation is kind of 20 years or 250 years behind, whichever way one wants to look at it. Working with a 62 degree pitch plane is about like using a cap iron set properly, except the edge life is very short, the planing effort is more, and the surface finish isn't as good unless the wood is really hard. It makes for a one-trick pony. The resason both types are so popular (gordon's and the BU types) is because they're popular with beginners, but neither addresses much about successfully working wood - they trade some instant success and simple making for much better efficiency.

    Or put a different way -both types are vastly substandard to a simple stanley common pitch plane which has only one hurdle to get over (learning to use the cap iron). Beginners are how you make ends meet as a maker or manufacturer - but it doesn't mean beginners have to go that route.

    Separately, I've used both types at different points before landing on more efficient planes, and if sharpening a BU plane is some kind of issue, there's a problem with the sharpening and not completing the job. The reality in planing hard woods is that the 62 degree plane with the same steel as the bevel up low angle plane will result in the same sharpening effort for the same volume of work done. neither is much good for anything other than smoothing. Actually, they're terrible at either one and when you go coarser than smoothing, the disparity between them and old wooden planes or stanley planes grows much wider.

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomartomau View Post
    So far, as currently owning a Stanley no3, I like it's size but I don't hear a lot about that size, so I am prepared to purchase these as to compliment my woodworking;
    Bull nose plane(to clean up rabbets both along and cross the grain)
    No 3 Bench Plane
    Block Plane (to break edges) and tidy up.
    Both 3 and 4 sizes were popular with professional users in the US. The #4 and the #5 were the most widely available planes in the US as the customer base expands beyond someone doing work at a bench to farms and construction sites, etc, but the #3 is/was well liked and more popular than 2s or 4 1/2s. which seem to be novel less with experienced users and more with people looking for something special via being less common. An odd thing if you're actually hoping to do work with a plane, but not that odd if you're collecting and less common seems more appealing.

  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonzeyd View Post
    In answering your question PM-V11 without a doubt is the superior steel. As its specifically designed to hold an edge, but at the same time easier to sharpen compared to A2 blades.

    If however you're constantly working with Australian hardwoods, i'd go with an A2 blade as they hold their edge better.
    The top line is a statement that makes for good marketing, but it's false (not your fault). V11 grinds more slowly than A2, it's more wear resistant and is at the upper end of its tempering range from LV, so it feels like it sharpens more crisply due to the tempering. But it does not hone as easily or as quickly.

    XHP Steel - History and Properties - Knife Steel Nerds

    This is V11 or if there are any changes made in batches ordered by LV, an XRF test of composition didn't show them - so the comments can be considered to apply.

    V11 is basically A2 add carbon, add chromium, and spray it out of a nozzle because it would make for an ugly result it if were melted and allowed to cool like older ingot type steels. A2 does fine in ingot form. Imagine spray painting tiny grains of sand into a blob, heating it and then rolling it to process rather than pouring paint out of a can and letting it dry. That's basically the difference. If paint got lumpy drying because things coagulated in it but you got around that by spraying it in tiny aerosolized particles, that's what powder metal allows.

    Long story short, V11/XHP has slightly higher hardness potential (not much) and LV tempers it at the top of that based on what I have seen. It is "strong" but not tough. A2 is sort of strong, sort of not, sort of tough, sort of not. toughness is an attribute for woodworking that only needs to be good enough - too much of it becomes a detriment - won't go into it, just learned the hard way that steel can be too tough to let go on the edge and influence more attached to it to fail rather than just departing and leaving the good stuff behind unharmed.

    I think you really shouldn't notice much difference between the two except that A2 is usually a little softer and the edge seems to be more difficult to get crisp. It sharpens - wears away more slowly - but the hardness gives the illusion that it's sharpening crisp more easily. Kees Heiden actually made a machine that would measure the abraded material and confirmed the actual wear rate on a stone V11 is half of similar hardness O1. guess what else - it also planes in an idealized scenario twice as long - because it wears half as fast. The abrasion test assumes sharpening media that will sharpen everything in both.

    both A2 and V11/XHP are more dimensionally stable when hardened and easier to get to their hardness potential in an industrial process than simpler steels.

    LN's A2 is more uniform than LVs, too - unless something has changed. If you're ordering an LV plane, LV doesn't harden O1 to its sweet spot - it's too soft, so there's no great reason to get anything other than V11 from LV. LN used to offer O1 and A2, but they lost the hardening service that did O1, so that's gone.

    I was enamored with XHP/V11 when I tested edge life a few years ago, but in true use more than smoothing wood that already went through a planer, it ends up being less favorable than good O1 hardened around 62 hardness. The trouble is, I don't know of anyone who makes a good iron hardened at 62 hardness, but hock undertempers theirs a little bit and they can be improved in an accurate kitchen oven by tempering them back to about 62.

    simple definition of strength in an edge - how much force it takes to deform a sample's edge
    Simple definition of toughness - how much force a metal sample absorbs from a standardized machine when the machine intentionally breaks the sample cleanly

    There's a third issue not addressed, which is fine edge holding. Some steels that have equivalent strength and toughness measures also have more carbide content at the edge - the higher the carbide volume, the more a steel is apt to chip as the carbides crack and leave. V11 has a lot of carbides. Good A2 has fewer, but bad A2 has fewer less evenly distributed and the result can be just as poor as higher carbide volume.

    stepping wayyyy back from that:
    * consider v11 a high wear steel that's a little hard tempered, expect small chipping when you use it here and there
    * consider A2 a steel that has the potential to wear about 60-65% as long as V11 if both are used in an idealized scenario

    Sharpening difference between the two may not be noticeable because they both have chromium carbide. Grinding a length of metal off would probably be needed to actually see how V11 grinds more slowly on a grinding wheel or even CBN.

    My practical advice is A2 from LN (what other choice do you have) and V11 from LV - if you start putting other manufacturer's irons in LV or LN planes, it's not addressing the real problem, which is sharpening speed.

  6. #20
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    I would suggest finding a way to pick them all up and handle them before you decide on what to buy. Possibly wait until the next woodworking show in your area so that you can see the whole range of tools both companies have to offer. You may be surprised in some cases. For instance I was surprised how big the low angle jack from veritas was. Conversely I was surprised at how small and delicate the chisels from lie nielsen were. Both companies range of bench plane were much heavier than what I am used to (vintage Stanley), so much so that I no longer want a bench plane from either of them. Your preferences may differ.

    Cheers,
    Zac.

  7. #21
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    My preference in a smoother is a #3 size. I have a Stanley #3, which belonged to my FIL, and it is tuned up with a Clifton O1 blade. Nice user.



    Veritas do not make a #3 in their Custom Planes, and so I have their #4. But it is a "small" size and feels closer to a #3 than a #4.

    Veritas #4 and #7 ...



    I also have the LN #3 and this is tricked out with a #4 handle as my paws are on the larger size. The blade is a Veritas PM-V11.



    The Stanley is the lightest, but not by much, with the Veritas and LN feeling much the same. All great planes to use.


    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  8. #22
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    There's a problem with planes, or at least I have a problem, not only do we have individual preferences for sizes & weights, but these can change over time, for all sorts of objective & subjective reasons. So the advice "try before you buy" is good, but don't be surprised if the plane you loved at first meeting becomes something you dislike in a few years time.

    I think this is probably a problem peculiar to amateurs who can afford to over-think things - if you were earning your living with hand-planes you would be far more likely to simply "get used" to what you were told to use on day 1 & stick with it - practice & acquired skill can make up for many shortcomings in a tool, & let's face it, the differences between the 'best' & 'worst' planes are mostly pretty trivial. You can fettle up a very ordinary Bailey to do a perfectly acceptable job, & even if it doesn't make your soul sing when you are using it, the results will be indistinguishable from those obtained with a Holtey once the finish is on. I built a lot of furniture with a limited selection of very ordinary tools 30 years ago, but some of it is as well-finished & sound as anything I could make today with a wider & finer selection of tools at my disposal.

    As just one example my own preference for a smoother has changed fairly recently, despite years of being happy with a Bailey type #4. I did try a #4 1/2 in the 70's when they were being touted by the gurus of the time, took an instant dislike to it & have never re-visited. About 20 years ago or maybe a bit more, I had the temporary use of a #3, & although it was not the best #3 in the world, I did rather like the thing, probably as much because of the job I was using it for as anything else, but it did start me thinking it was worth exploring further. I looked for a "good" #3 at a sensible price for some time & failed to find one so I ended up rolling my own:

    Replaced bun 2019.jpg
    I was pretty happy with the performance of it (it was the 3rd infill I made & I was starting to get the hang of things), but not so happy with some of the details of my design & manufacture, so I made another in the search for that impossible goal "perfection".
    Shavings.jpg

    Of course there are still things I could've done better. Both planes are capable of fine work, the differences are so minor I would have to show you "in the hand", but I am just a little happier using the final version. The weight is between a Bailey 3 & 4, so it's not 'heft' that makes me like this plane - my old #4 is just as capable of doing anything the infill can do & it's the one I still use more often for everyday work because I can so easily vary the depth of cut, which I like to be able to do when "rough" smoothing. The infill does excel at the final finish stage, but that's because it's set up precisely for that. And of course, there's the smugness that comes with using a tool of your own manufacture when it actually works well!

    There are many & varied reasons for liking any plane, you can talk about a few objective factors like blade quality (but even that is not constant, different alloys appeal to different users depending on what woods they mostly work with), but in the end it's largely personal preferences that determine what's best for you. Go for a tool that appeals to you aesthetically & ergonomically & with luck, it'll grow with you, but don't be surprised if you find yourself using it less & less in favour of some other tool as the years progress. It's healthy & normal!

    Cheers,
    IW

  9. #23
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    Thanks everyone. I will purchase what I know I will use now. I can always purchase as the need arises later on. I was pretty keen on the Veritas proprietary steel but I have pulled back to what feels best when i try them.
    I should also say that I don't need the most expensive planes either, just the Luban planes to me seem quite high in price and that the Veritas and LN are not that much more.

  10. #24
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    Here is the toolbox I will be storing them in. I made it a few months ago.20220126_143240.jpg


    20220126_143228.jpg

    20220126_143240.jpg

  11. #25
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    I was watching a number of Rob Cosman videos, O have in the past come across a few and for what it is worth I think he is capable at setting up planes. The planes he uses are WoodRiver which I believe he has a vested interest but I am more interested in how to set one up from new.
    Rob does a few things that I am unsure I would like to do on a premium plane and I would like your thoughts on;
    1. Taking the edge of the sides, front and back of the sole of the plane.
    2. Filing the burr of the front of the mouth of the plane.
    Would you guys do that to a $300+ plane?

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomartomau View Post
    I was watching a number of Rob Cosman videos, O have in the past come across a few and for what it is worth I think he is capable at setting up planes. The planes he uses are WoodRiver which I believe he has a vested interest but I am more interested in how to set one up from new.
    Rob does a few things that I am unsure I would like to do on a premium plane and I would like your thoughts on;
    1. Taking the edge of the sides, front and back of the sole of the plane.
    2. Filing the burr of the front of the mouth of the plane.
    Would you guys do that to a $300+ plane?

    Yes, if I plan to use it. If I were a collector, then probably not. For the record, I'm not a collector. This is where the quality of LN and Veritas planes come into play and explains why so many are prepared to pay extra for them. From my limited experience, and it's pretty much generally accepted, you will not have to do these refinements with planes from either company. Like you, I considered the Woodriver and Luban planes but I could not justify their prices when compared to the "premium" brands. When I last checked, the Woodriver/Luban planes weren't that much cheaper and the price difference AFAIC was justified given the higher fit and finish, materials used (especially blade steel), customer support, country of manufacturer, and stronger resale value. But we all place different weightings on different criteria and YMMV.

  13. #27
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    Thanks KahoyCutter, I am not a collector and my tools will be passed down to our children if it is something they would like.

  14. #28
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    Without meaning to offend anyone, I wouldn't consider Woodriver/Luban to be "collector" planes but who knows what's going to be considered to be considered a "collector" in 50 or 100 years time.

  15. #29
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    Woodworking by amateurs and as a hobby encompasses a wide range of involved individuals. Some purchase the best tools they can afford to use, and some purchase the best tools they can afford to own for bragging rights. What constitutes the best tools is up for debate.

    If this was a continuum, where would you fit? In my own case, I build with the tools, and want good tools for this purpose, but I also enjoy the aesthetics of the tools as art in themselves. So I am somewhat stuck in the middle.

    While there are some Veritas planes which are beautiful (imo), and tempt one to caress and place on show all, while stylish, most place innovative ergonomics over bling. Lie Nielsen take their form from vintage Stanley and Record, add a level of solidity and high tolerance, along with a measure of bling, and offer up tools with perceived heritage and prestige. It would be interesting to do a study on the owners of these tools (speaking as a psychologist) ... would we find more users among Veritas and more collectors among LN? I own both.

    When WoodRiver first came out, it was for the sole purpose to steal the market from LN ... but not by offering the quality of LN, just their appearance. These look-a-likes were poorer quality. Version #2 was an attempt to escape the copy label, and they were poor designs. Version #3 was redesigned by Rob Cosman, addressing the faults, and understandably he promotes and sells them. However, WR have struggled to shake off the label of copy. Luban are "copies" of WR (made by the same factory), in that they stand on the shoulders of a copy. They will never become collectors items. The value of a "collector" tool is that it retains its value.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  16. #30
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    Thanks Derek. I am use mainly machinery and power tools but I like to fit and finish with hand tools where required. I have a couple of planes a old, old Stanley block plane with a sweetheart logo on the blade and a no 3 Stanley which has a broken rear handle but has pitting in the sole.

    I really only require 3 planes as I see it to do what I need.
    A smoother, in my case a no 3
    A standard Block plane, I prefer the alignment of the set screws on the Veritas
    Small plane to clean up raised panels to fit into rabbets

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