Thread: Lie Neilsen or Veritas?

let's be accurate on purpose, derek. I've explained the difference between a standard test where V11 shines an then actual use at least a half dozen times. I doubt you've missed it.

Actually, David, I probably did miss many of your posts on WoodCentral. They were too wordy and too many to keep up with. You get on a roll for days and weeks on end. The topic was interesting, but it became overwhelming. It was a reason why I asked you to try and be succinct.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

SD, I don't recall what the steel was. Was it D2? There was a lot of HSS (M2) being used around that time.

I did not take up any of the chisel offers. Have they turned out well?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Yup, certain it was D2. Pretty certain it was Swiss in origin.

Ya, they hold a surgical sharp edge for a long time. Knowing what I know now with the plane blade, it would have been a good thing to get in on the bench chisels also that I could use with a mallet. Oh well, easy come easy go.

After all of the above for folks thinking TL-DR, there are standardized results, and mine matched two different knife people for XHP (V11) vs. simpler steels.

Everything else I tested (M2-ish steel, blue steel, CPM 3V and CPM M4) also ended just where it should be in a standardized test.

But, a standardized test is just the start. Then a practical test has to confirm things. for V11, you can get great sharpness, slickness through wood, but it will not hold up the standardized test dominance in regular use. For an experienced woodworker, it definitely won't. For a beginner, it might (e.g., if someone is going to spend 6 minutes sharpening every time, then it may offer some benefit).

I made chisels for someone in the US who usually uses steels that need diamonds. I sent him some, they are very easy sharpening but hard. That translates to saying they make a good chisel, but as a plane iron, the edge doesn't last any longer than a laminated iron from 1850. This particular user told me he saw no difference in sharpening time, which I found puzzling. Then he stated why - that he sharpens everything the same way, and if that way is suitable for a steel that needs diamonds then he will apply that to a simple steel chisel that could tolerate a much less fiddly and much faster sharpening regime.

I informed him that he could halve his sharpening time with the new chisel instead - not sure where that went, but a couple of weeks ago, he did say my chisel offers the best balance of edge holding and sharpenability of anything he's used. I expect that to be the case because it's what I was aiming for. Not sure if he changed his sharpening method.

All of these little nits are why people report different experience. it's also why when someone says they get double the edge life out of V11 and the next person calls them a liar and then they start calling each other a liar, the devil is probably in the details.

I'm happy to have XHP for near stainless knives now - that's good enough. It didn't work out for woodworking tools - I could live with it, but I don't have to.

if I had to plane 35k feet of clean beech wood edges again, I'd bust it back out, because it's really good at that. I won't have a chisel made out of it no matter what, and sold the chisel that I used testing the unicorn method almost as soon as the test was over. In an A/B comparison against one bad chisel and two other good ones (mid level japanese chisel and AI chisel), it didn't show any advantage over anything but the bad chisel. The other two cost about $35 each and performed better - my own chisels perform better. Some people will have the V11 chisels already and like them a lot or try them and want to buy them. They should do whatever pleases them, but to suggest that it makes a superior chisel is misleading.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

The topic was interesting, but it became overwhelming.

Derek

It is interesting but yup, definitely takes more than one read through for it coalesce. Kinda like those pesky carbide molecules in tool steel eh .


Granted. It is one of those subjects where a short answer won't cover it.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Actually, David, I probably did miss many of your posts on WoodCentral. They were too wordy and too many to keep up with. You get on a roll for days and weeks on end. The topic was interesting, but it became overwhelming. It was a reason why I asked you to try and be succinct.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, here's a summary for you. you posted something where nearly every fact is false. It looks bad in that it's in the direction of your bias.

V11 is not fine grained, O1 is, A2 is not fine grained, it's about the same as V11 in terms of maximum carbide size but the carbides are more sparse. it's tougher than V11. D2 is not ingot only, it is PM, sprayform and ingot. Both of the first two are as fine grained as V11, the PM is more fine grained.

You are sour right now because I constantly get stuck pointing out things that you say that are factually false. Not Dave's opinion false, but factually and unhelpfully false when they are facts that can literally be searched. And then other things such as this whole sailboat and plane thing that only occurs with a lack of experience.

Search CPM D2 steel - instantly you find it for sale.

the grain size, you may have no way to find out - I pointed it out with pictures because people deserve an answer they can see and confirm. If you don't have a way to know whether it's true or not, maybe it would be better of to not show it.

I would generally take long and factually correct over short, preening and factually false. I'd be embarrassed to complain to moderators on a forum the way you did, too, but that's your business.

At least spin doctor won't have to question what he saw at this point - he did something that few do on here - he posted an A/B actual comparison doing real work.

David, your paranoia is showing.

Not everyone spends all their breathing hours obsessing about steel composition. Above I deferred to you for the facts on these steels. I do not see where I deliberately, or with bias, misled anyone here.

Your sourness for events on WoodCentral is directed at me, and your insight into what occurred there is minimal. Egocentric, obsessional, and misdirected. I do not wish to get into a slanging match with you, so I shall stop here.

Regards from Darwin

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

David, your paranoia is showing.

Not everyone spends all their breathing hours obsessing about steel composition. Above I deferred to you for the facts on these steels. I do not see where I deliberately, or with bias, misled anyone here.

Your sourness for events on WoodCentral is directed at me, and your insight into what occurred there is minimal. Egocentric, obsessional, and misdirected. I do not wish to get into a slanging match with you, so I shall stop here.

Regards from Darwin

Derek

I think you're having trouble dealing with reality at this point, or at least trying to stuff it off where nobody talks about it.

what was sent to me was worded by you, cut and paste. You posted the same thing in your own later - matching nearly word for word. When I mentioned why I was irritated on the forum and removed several of my posts, I immediately got three emails from other people "I'll bet it was derek". Two suggested one reason, a third another. That's their speculation. I don't really care - here's the part that made me annoyed. Someone who offers little at this point other than endless discussions of dovetail markers and who wants to go to forum moderation and complain about other posters and suggest what people should be allowed to post or how is irritating, and not only to me.

The other part that I find annoying is factual assertions made while pretending to be an expert, and this is a topic that you know almost nothing about.

Your comments about me above are projection. At some point, you can drop whatever this false front wanting to be seen as the expert on everything and stop carrying around this burden of expecting that people think you're something that you aren't and critiquing what everyone else talks about or how they talk about it. The burden of ego is on you, not me. I'm intensely interested in the factual bits, the ability to talk about something above and beyond "essential dovetail markers". Everything doesn't have to be done to try to draw admiration from beginners over and over and over, especially not with this nonsense attitude that you know what's best for everyone else in terms of what's discussed or what level it's discussed. That is the most obnoxious part of all of it.

Maybe the spin doctor will not care to read all of the above, maybe one other person passing by will develop an interest. Maybe they won't. Stiffen your back a little and stand straight up and let other people decide what they want talk about and not talk about and cut out this farcical desire to curate everything everywhere.

I just want to thank all of your replies about a basic hand plane setup. I am grateful

Regards Tony

David, it is always someone else’s fault? I take it that you had nothing to do with leaving WoodCentral, and a number of other forums?

You were not asked to leave. You went off in a huff. Ellis, the website owner, asked you to cut back on your posts on steel and blades. You posted several times a day, often replying to yourself as another thought occurred. It was a constant brain dump. No one else was posting. Unlike this website with several fori, WoodCentral only has a Power- and a handtools forum. It was unrecognizable as a handtools forum. The forum was dying. But you just kept on.

I was not the first to contact Ellis. I was not even the second. I did contact him, and suggested a metalwork forum. He could not do this, and then spoke with you. The result was a hissy fit. But it had nothing to do with you, right? Same deal on the UK forum.

Enough. The members of this forum have known me a long, long time. They can make up their own minds. This type of petty bickering is unwanted. If you want to start a fight with me, try emailing me instead.

Regards from Alice Springs

Derek