Thread: Lie-Nielsen catalogue Aussie edition

Originally Posted by Too Many Clamps

They are cheaper because customs did not sting you 10% GST.

I'd be wary of by-passing the Australian distributor. Perhaps an open letter to them might help bring prices more in line with US pricing given the state of the Australian dollar.

If I was the Australian distributor, I would tell LN to shove it where the sun don't shine because a distributor can never, nor should it ever, compete with the parent company.

I just checked out the Australian and US websites. The brand the Australian website as LN Australia. If that were strictly true, why ship from the US unless you don't hold stock.

But we are not talking about a distributor competing with a manufacturing parent. We are talking about competition between two retail outlets, one if not both, of whom are owned by the parent company.

And to refuse to sell retail puts it in technical breach of Australian competition policy. If LN Aus is owned by the parent then the parent would be in clear breach. If it wants to operate in Aus it must follow Aus law.

Cheers

Graeme

Very true.

I've spent most of my life importing stuff from the US under various distribution arrangements - not tools, but other assorted specialised items (mainly telecommunications/electronics products).

Under a pukka distribution arrangement, as "appointed Australian distributor" we got between 15% and 20% off list (published) prices, with further discounts for volume. That meant we could take our buy price, mark up our landed price by 25-30% (we had economy of scale by shipping in volume), and end up offering the local customer virtually price parity compared with them buying direct at list price.

In return for this "cut", the supplier expected us to keep product and spares in stock locally (it was up to us to decide items/quantities based on demand). They would also refer any local enquiries back to us rather than supply directly. Any customer using a US-based "buying house" to go around us would inevitably end up paying more (the service isn't free...) and lose their local warranty, so this hardly ever happened.

Such a relationship has benefits for the manufacturer AND the distributor......

GreameCook,

Respectfully, and keeping in mind I'm new around here, unless you have some intimate knowledge of the legal status of LN Australia and its relationship to LN USA, your only speculating.

Australian law applies to companies trading in Australia. LN USA, or any other USA company, is under no obligation to sell to Australia. Whether they own and operate an Australia presence. Further, Australian competition rules would allow a Sydney store the right to refuse to sell to Melbourne customers.

Colarado clothing stores, it turns out, are not owned by Colarado clothing, but licence the use of the name.

Mr Brush,

Your right on the money.

If LN Australia really is an independent, and Australia owned, distributor, then LN USA is worse than a dog with fleas. No wonder they need to put a premium on the prices. Like you suggest Mr Brush, the situation is even worse when you throw in any requirement to keep certain levels of stock. Much would've been bough at far less favourable exchange rates.

I know a bucks a buck. If you can get it cheaper from the US, well why not eh. Just don't complain next time you go to a woodworking show and there's no Lie Nielsen booth so you a check out that shooting board plane you were keen on. If you must buy it in the US, use a third party. Don't give the manufacturer full retail because their costs are much lower and because they are worse than dogs with fleas. Buy Australian!

It would be nice to hear from LN Australia on this.

You can buy an irwin block plane from carbatec for $143.10 (on special 'til 10-10-10 - then $159. Or you can buy a stanley 9 1/2 from the tool exchange 2nd hand from $90 to $155. Some of these may be deemed collectable which may affect value. Veritas block planes are priced at $206 to $242 and up to $386 for their top of the line model. These prices are from carbatec as well and also go up after the 10th october as they are on special 'til then. The lie nielsen low angle adjustable mouth block plane is as you know $249. I don't have any experience with the veritas although I have seen their $242 model and the "veritas" logo had come off, it was plastic of some kind. I'm sure this doesn't affect it's performance but it wasn't a good look. I have used a number of stanleys and liked them. But when I bought the lie nielsen I couldn't believe how really good it was and basically it is by far and away my favourite tool. It feels great to use, it stays sharp for a long time and it's just one of the best looking things you could use. I have used it to do everything form end grain work to shaping the profile on my dining table (tassie myrtle). How much did I pay? I forget but it was under $200 on ebay no box no guarantee. I reckon though by the time I've finished using it ( a long time yet I hope) I will owe it money. I have thought of buying another one just so I could have two it's that good. Pretty much what I am really trying to say is that it's a great tool and the price is secondary to the quality. Not all of us can afford everything but my plan is to accumulate over a period of time, as I definitely fall into the "have to save up for stuff" category. I have also bought a couple of things from the lie nielsen guys in adelaide and when they have been at shows and found them very helpful. If they are prepared to take the risk of bringing such a high quality tool to australia then I will try and support them as Australia is such a small market and selling high end stuff of any sort is not easy.

Originally Posted by Too Many Clamps

GreameCook,

Respectfully, and keeping in mind I'm new around here, unless you have some intimate knowledge of the legal status of LN Australia and its relationship to LN USA, your only speculating.

Australian law applies to companies trading in Australia. LN USA, or any other USA company, is under no obligation to sell to Australia. Whether they own and operate an Australia presence. Further, Australian competition rules would allow a Sydney store the right to refuse to sell to Melbourne customers.

You are simply wrong on this. Much corporate and business law is extra-territorial. For example, the entire law on transfer pricing is based on events that occur outside Australia. But enforceability is another matter.

Just talk to anyone in the CD or DVD player industry on the extension of this law.

Similarly you are wrong on the Sydney - Melbourne argument. If a business advertises or offers to sell some goods, they enter a very difficult area of competition law if they refuse to sell to someone who plonks the cash down. They do not have to offer credit, basically they have to accept cards if they normally accept cards (clearance is instantaneous), if they normally sell mail order basically they have to sell to that Melbourne customer. Twenty years ago a business could refuse to deal with anyone; under competition law it is now much more complex.

Cheers

Graeme

I haven't read all the above but when I have bought tools from LN Aust the receipt I am pretty sure has another company name on it so I think they are most likely just a dist. I have always found Phil a very aproachable guy and if you think you are not getting a good deal call or email him. I have bought all my LN items through him and what you see in the book may not be what you pay if he has a choice at the time.

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

You are simply wrong on this. Much corporate and business law is extra-territorial. For example, the entire law on transfer pricing is based on events that occur outside Australia. But enforceability is another matter.

Graeme,

Please point me to the relevant Australian legislation that requires a US company to sell to someone in Australia.

Like I said before, unless you have some intimate knowledge of the legal status of LN Australia and its relationship to LN USA, you are only speculating.

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

Similarly you are wrong on the Sydney - Melbourne argument. If a business advertises or offers to sell some goods, they enter a very difficult area of competition law if they refuse to sell to someone who plonks the cash down. They do not have to offer credit, basically they have to accept cards if they normally accept cards (clearance is instantaneous), if they normally sell mail order basically they have to sell to that Melbourne customer. Twenty years ago a business could refuse to deal with anyone; under competition law it is now much more complex.

Graeme,

I've said it before. I'm new here and don't want to start off on the wrong foot. That said, I dislike being talked down by someone claiming authority where none exists.

Please accept the following information from the ACCC website in the spirit of setting the record straight so that others may not be misinformed.

See ACCC Website: Refusing to supply consumers

Refusing to supply consumers

In general, businesses may decide for themselves with whom they wish to deal. The Trade Practices Act 1974 (the Act) does not give anyone an absolute right to be supplied, whatever the circumstances. There is no automatic right to be supplied and there is no obligation on a business to justify its decision to refuse supply.

However, there are a limited set of circumstances where refusing to sell goods to a customer can be illegal.

When is refusing to deal with a customer illegal?

There are only a few circumstances that make a refusal to deal illegal under the Act. Generally, these situations only arise where your refusal to sell goods or services to someone is done for an anticompetitive reason. As stated above, these circumstances are generally limited to business-to-business transactions and are generally unlikely to occur in normal retail selling.

Sometimes refusal to deal is prohibited outright, other times it is subject to a competition test.

Cheers

Just check the LN Cattle dog again boys
Mortise chisels
Buy individually @$96 each. Buy a set of 5 for $489 (Save -$9)
NO NO NO
Buy 5 Individually @ $96 each = $480. Buy a set & it cost $9 extra...go figure

Sorry, TMC, I did not mean to appear to talk down to you. Those guidelines from ACCC that you quote have a sting in their tail, in that their imprecision leads businesses to interprete them very broadly. An accusation of anti-competitive behaviour quickly becomes very expensive to defend. ACCC and lawyers at 50 paces.

About 8 - 10 years ago the ACCC mounted a case against the overseas DVD player manufacturers. They, the DVD industry, had divided the world up into a number of "Regional Zones", largely to assist them in the control of their prices. Australia was Zone 4. Thus if you bought a DVD player in Hong Kong then it would not work with DVDs from Australia. Similarly, if you bought DVDs from the US, Uk or continent they would not work in an Australian bought DVD player. The ACCC deemed this to be anti-competitive behaviour.

The Australian importers claimed that the the overseas suppliers would not provide them with other than Zone 4 product. Sometimes those importers were subsidiaries or affiliates of the overseas company, sometimes totally independent. It did not affect the ACCC case. They simply stated that the "regional zoning" was a breach of Australian competition policy and unacceptable. I do not think ACCC ever said anything publicly, but a rumour swept the Aus business community that ACCC had privately advised the manufacturers that they would stop all imports from businesses deemed to be anti-competitive - ie Panasonic, Philips, Sony, etc.

The overseas DVD manufacturers screamed about victimisation and then kowtowed. They now sell "universal zone" DVD players into Australia and will convert all existing players to universal at their expense. They also publish codes so that you can convert DVD players bought overseas into universal zone players.

Now, I do not think the ACCC would put so much effort into you or me not being supplied with a few tools. But an overseas manufacturer's behaviour is likely to be influenced if he is aware that he is breaching a law in a possible market.

This is taking much more effort than is warranted, and I thing we are way of the thread topic.

Cheers

Graeme

A lot of the comment here about LN prices as OZ versus US might very well be relevant given the current high parity rate and the opportunity for folk to give voice to concerns regarding the on hand product here.

I can understand folks desire to save wherever possible but in my view I have always found dealing with the local outlet pleasant, their communication and considerations in costings for me ( I have a lot of LN tools from them ) over time has been reasonably good considering availability and price.

I have asked for and got cost consideration which was'nt exactly like pulling teeth this whether at the wood shows or by phone/fax/ email.In my book I like wherever to support the local bloke if its within reason and mostly they are'nt far off the mark so they get my dollar.

Of course the doallars not always strong and when you want good tools then its going to be search until you find what you want at the cost you want but any issues with the tool means sending it back to the place where it was purchased another reason to support the local site.

just my views

Cheers

Originally Posted by JohnnoM

Just check the LN Cattle dog again boys
Mortise chisels
Buy individually @$96 each. Buy a set of 5 for $489 (Save -$9)
NO NO NO
Buy 5 Individually @ $96 each = $480. Buy a set & it cost $9 extra...go figure

YES. Finally someone agrees with me.

According to the LNAust website (8 Oct 2010), if the five mortise chisels in the set are purchased as individual items the cost is $507. If they are purchased as a set (without the tool roll), the cost is $489 - which is a discount of approx 4 percent.

Price parity with the US in line with exchange rates would be great, but I don't know of any SME that does this.

Cheers

Just placed an order on the Lee Valley website. Listen up Nielsen this is how your cousins from the north do their business.

A set of 3 Veritas spokeshave + Roll: USD $255 (save $48.5)
Veritas Snug-Plug Cutters & Saw : $58 (save $12.5)

See they sell their product in sets with a purpose. Time to get a new marketing manager don't you think?