Thread: Making a Lie-Nielsen Plane from Start to Finish

Hi Ian

I do deny experimental mistakes, I am afraid. The experiment describes what was done and the results obtained. It hasn't supported the assertions to date. It could point to new experiment, that may require downforce in some at least semi controlled fashion- some thought required. I don't have blocks of lead handy to load up the plane.

Adding to the mix , ran another "planing" a piece timber with wax on, to see if I could feel the effect the concenus agrees on. Since I was looking at my plane rather more than typical, I noticed that wax had stuck planing dust to the base (jarrah will crumble)- this what I suspected was going on, reducing the possibility of noticing a Lubrication effect.

As first change of the experiment, intending to pick up some paraffin oil - see if that changes the drag test and can at least anecdotally reduce planing resistance when using the tool. The consensus regarding this is advantage is strong and I am aware my of outlier status. But a dust collecting lubrication system will not function well. There may be some other mechanism - burnishing? binding of the wood fibres, pore filling that is assisting.







IMG_6235 2.jpg

The processes tad like waxing a surfboard - the surfwax is nor that different - paraffin and beeswax mix. But on a surfboard it all about grip, without body rash. Fibreglass and water is challenge to hold onto.

Good Morning Martin

I have been watching this thread, puzzled as to why your experience is so different from mine. My experience is that waxing the sole reduces the friction drastically - say by 80% - not subtly - but I have not done any empirical testing.

Over the years I have tried many options and have lubricated soles with:

• Candle stick (paraffin wax),
• Paraffin oil pad,
• Lanolin,
• Natural bees wax.
• Hurrell's antique furniture polish.

All worked equally well; paraffin pad is easiest to use, lanolin and bees wax smell nicest. My technique was to lightly rub the wax onto the sole, then to burnish the sole with a handful of shavings or a cloth. Sole instantly feels slippery, shines a little, but no residual wax left. Never any sign of stickiness.

"I have been watching this thread, puzzled as to why your experience is so different from mine. My experience is that waxing the sole reduces the friction drastically - say by 80% - not subtly - but I have not done any empirical testing. "

Hi Graeme, Ian, David Rad and all other interested parties.

I suspect I have a hypothesis that might be possible to prove true, if someone put in the effort to do so, as I seem to solving a problem no one need solving. It was allure of twice the blade life and half the effort, that lead me to check my assumption that waxing was a possible myth, or something I could not replicate

Tested again this time with paraffin oil, on rag, in a can. The Paraffin oil in can coated the base of the plane with a thin even layer, quick. To touch it "felt" slipperier.
Coating did not have tendency to dust- or if it did the effect was reduced to the point of invisible to the eye. On drag test though the number are not great maybe 220 to 240 grams - higher than before.

I could not detect a reliable reduction in drag with pressure applied either, by feel.


Back to the hypothesis. My opinion is that the paraffin is not acting as lubricant at all. What it is doing is acting as barrier to hydrogen bonds from moisture. Paraffin is essentially immiscible in water. Water is rather sticky and bonds with metal pretty well- ie,metal becomes wet( water spreads thinly over metal, preferential to bonding to itself- it really loves the stuff). Right now, here humidity is 39% and air temperature 32 degrees, cooler than it was. It dry enough that you lucky to hang out the washing before its dry.


Essentially the surface of both my planes and the wood are "dry" and paraffin hydrogen bond protection, not required and I cannot feel the effect. However for Ian, in Brisbane, where the humidity it high enough that his planes turn to rust while he watching, has numerous hydrogen bonds to defend against.

Ok saying the paraffin is a lubricant is considerably simpler than stating it defends agains hydrogen bonds in moist environments.

Any practical consequence- well one maybe two - the paraffin oil rag in the can is more effective at coating the base of the plane and not a dust magnet.

It is possible that similar approach should be consider when planing say redgum and having trouble with the sap. The paraffin oil rag in can, with its wider even coverage of the base might be better at defending at glycosidic bonds but I am uncertain here without testing.


But the upshot is - yes you are correct, and it seems I correct as well even tough we are at polar ends>


End of nerd moment.

Martin

I don't know where the truth lies in this debate, but I am very partial to a good hypothesis.

Thank you.

Regards
paul

Originally Posted by MartinCH

"I have been watching this thread, puzzled as to why your experience is so different from mine. My experience is that waxing the sole reduces the friction drastically - say by 80% - not subtly - but I have not done any empirical testing. "

Hi Graeme, Ian, David Rad and all other interested parties.

I suspect I have a hypothesis that might be possible to prove true, if someone put in the effort to do so, as I seem to solving a problem no one need solving. It was allure of twice the blade life and half the effort, that lead me to check my assumption that waxing was a possible myth, or something I could not replicate

Tested again this time with paraffin oil, on rag, in a can. The Paraffin oil in can coated the base of the plane with a thin even layer, quick. To touch it "felt" slipperier.
Coating did not have tendency to dust- or if it did the effect was reduced to the point of invisible to the eye. On drag test though the number are not great maybe 220 to 240 grams - higher than before.

I could not detect a reliable reduction in drag with pressure applied either, by feel.


Back to the hypothesis. My opinion is that the paraffin is not acting as lubricant at all. What it is doing is acting as barrier to hydrogen bonds from moisture. Paraffin is essentially immiscible in water. Water is rather sticky and bonds with metal pretty well- ie,metal becomes wet( water spreads thinly over metal, preferential to bonding to itself- it really loves the stuff). Right now, here humidity is 39% and air temperature 32 degrees, cooler than it was. It dry enough that you lucky to hang out the washing before its dry.


Essentially the surface of both my planes and the wood are "dry" and paraffin hydrogen bond protection, not required and I cannot feel the effect. However for Ian, in Brisbane, where the humidity it high enough that his planes turn to rust while he watching, has numerous hydrogen bonds to defend against.

Ok saying the paraffin is a lubricant is considerably simpler than stating it defends agains hydrogen bonds in moist environments.

Any practical consequence- well one maybe two - the paraffin oil rag in the can is more effective at coating the base of the plane and not a dust magnet.

It is possible that similar approach should be consider when planing say redgum and having trouble with the sap. The paraffin oil rag in can, with its wider even coverage of the base might be better at defending at glycosidic bonds but I am uncertain here without testing.


But the upshot is - yes you are correct, and it seems I correct as well even tough we are at polar ends>


End of nerd moment.

Should be paraffin wax.

Paul

Hard to prove to someone who lives in Queensland, the humidity would high and moisture present. If the proposal is correct, it would need a dry environmental conditions to replicate. There is not any major implications, other than I am not likely to see "half the planing effort, twice the blade life" here over summer, and that everyone's suggestion is correct for their environment.

Googling there are reference to problems such - the wet spot on my timber jammed my planer ( thickness here) in a number of locations like, this one:
Wood getting stuck in planer- suggestive that moisture makes the timber stickier to metal surfaces.


David - Tried a number of potential lubricants - paraffin wax, beeswax, light machine oil (3 in one) the paraffin oil- none exhibited a clear reduction in planing effort and drag testing all suggested a small increase in effort, but not really noticeable in practice.

I could possibly prove the hypothesis by wetting some timber and rerunning the checks, but I haven't as I didn't think of that while running the tests and nothing I have tried has indicated a possibility of improvement - so have discontinued. I cannot see practical benefit out of the hypothsis, other than it supports your dramatic saving and allows me to consider tha waxing has no benefit.

Originally Posted by MartinCH

Paul

Hard to prove to someone who lives in Queensland, the humidity would high and moisture present. If the proposal is correct, it would need a dry environmental conditions to replicate. There is not any major implications, other than I am not likely to see "half the planing effort, twice the blade life" here over summer, and that everyone's suggestion is correct for their environment.

Martin

To my shame I have never put anything on the soles of the few metal planes I own, although I am now anxious to try. not all QLD is humid: Mainly the immediate coastal areas and we are about 200Km inland. However, this last year it has been much more humid than I remember in past year, but still nowhere like the Brisbane coast.

What I have noticed is that timber can jam when passing through the thicknesser. I wipe the table with some Silber Gleit (Silver Glide) and the problem just disappears. I realise this is not an option for a hand plane because it is too greasy, but it sounds to me as though it lends some weight (literally) to the pressure/slipperiness theory.

Regards
Paul

Ive been playing with this on my larger planing jobs.
The planing away of machine marks leaving a rustic planed finish.
The machined board is lightly rubbed over with one of these plastic lead pencils on its side.

IMG_3732.jpg
This shows up the machine marks . So that when I plane I can more easily see that I've taken 100% of the machine marks away.
IMG_3370.jpg IMG_4715.jpg
Ive done the same before lightly wiping the board with a solution of metho and thin spirit black. The thing with the plastic lead what ever it is, is that it also slightly makes planing easier. But its very slight.
IT makes some interesting viewing with radiused blades as well
IMG_3380.jpg IMG_3385.jpg
Ive got another idea to mix some paraffin wax up with some oil based black paint as a way of making it black enough to mark the board the same way with a wax stick type crayon. The planing removes it and I get the visual advantage and the ease of planing the whole way. It could be a good thing.

Marking a board this way helps a lot visually . Specially when you have to do the edges of a heavy top and its to big to stand on its edges or ends to plane up.
IMG_3728.jpg

There's nothing worse than getting to the end of a polish job and finding machine marks still exist in the work.

Any wax left behind would interfere with staining or finishing though. The scraping and light sanding would probably remove any left overs though if done right.

Originally Posted by MartinCH

Hi Ian

I do deny experimental mistakes, I am afraid. The experiment describes what was done and the results obtained.......

True, Martin, your results are very interesting, but your methodology isn't replicating someone using a plane and making shavings, you've removed one of the variables. When results don't confirm a hypothesis, it pays to analyse thoroughly what's going on (which you are doing!). You have shown convincingly enough that a (non-cutting, unloaded) plane dragged over a surface has more drag after you applied the wax or oil - that's undeniable. But using the plane in earnest involves bearing down on it to some degree - we need a system that can measure arm force on a waxed or unwaxed plane in use, which is rather difficult to arrange in your average shed.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with getting experimental results that go against common wisdom (or myth!) - that's how some really useful discoveries have been made. But more often than not, it turns out there is a problem in the methodology and it's not addressing the question properly - damhik - I was sure I'd secured my Nobel prize a couple of times in my career..

So the question is, are Rob, DW, myself (& now Graeme) simply imagining that lubricating a plane sole makes it easier to plane with, or does it really do something, & if so, is it due to a lubricant effect or what? I'm sticking with lubrication for now, Rob's anecdote re the pencil lead making it easier tends to support that, graphite is an excellent lubricant. I don't mind if there is another or better explanation, but I'll need some better convincing if there is.

BTW, I think 'hydrogen bonding' is a very long shot - the distances over which those sorts of forces work are way less than the gaps between plane sole & wood surface, you can only achieve significant bonding with two very smooth & intimately-contacting surfaces...

Cheers,
Ian

Originally Posted by MartinCH

... Tested again this time with paraffin oil, on rag, in a can. The Paraffin oil in can coated the base of the plane with a thin even layer, quick. To touch it "felt" slipperier. ...

You may have nailed it? Did you just apply the paraffin and leave it?

It sounds like you may have applied way too much wax. I just apply a paraffin tin to the sole, and then rub it all off with a handful of shavings, ensuring it spreads to all dry spots. Rubbing takes 20 seconds, but when finished there is absolutely no trace of wetness, just a dry, slippery, polished surface.

It is akin to polishing antique furniture. Apply the polish too thickly and it takes a hell of a lot of elbow grease to smooth and buff that surface and release the sheen. You quickly learn to apply the polish very sparingly and to buff thoroughly.

"BTW, I think 'hydrogen bonding' is a very long shot - the distances over which those sorts of forces work are way less than the gaps between plane sole & wood surface, you can only achieve significant bonding with two very smooth & intimately-contacting surfaces..."

Hi Ian

I agree, at this time I have done nothing to confirm the hypothesis. I have not been able to replicate a "lubrication" effect, that I could convincingly detect. Nothing even close to the effect say oiling a thread and having a bolt change from mildly stubborn to spinning freely for 5 or 10 revolutions. And I agree that the gaps between plane sole & wood surface is to large. I have suggested, however, that presence of little bit moisture, only a smidgen, closes the gap, particularly when smoothing and one is attempting to make the plane base and wood very intimate. . In this season though moisture is hard to come by, outside.


When I have chance, in the shop, I will wet a wood surface and plane that, see the surface water increases resistance and then lowers it again with by waxing.



PS Proir to the test I didn't consider waxing an advantage, not while hand planing. I take Robs advise seriously and tried the process again and then "started" to investigate why I could not feel an advantage. Also note- waxing my handsaws is definitely a plus- very noticeable reduction in the chance of binding.

Hi Graeme

I have tried thin coats as well, without but nothing of note resulted.

This is bit of divergence - a really big fork in the road with no U turn in sight. I recall mentions of mentioning stainless and lower fiction..

Keeping this fork alive, another test.

Damped some timber, dragged my plane across the damp planed timber with the scale
- drag,500 to 550 grams
- this over 3 x higher I thing than the dry values on planed timber.
Waxed the base
- drag dropped back to 200 to 220 grams.

I think we have a smoking gun..

I think the most important thing is what you mentioned - choice of wood to work. I've worked with all of the favoured furniture woods from the Northern Hemisphere and a fair few here... I think there's good reason why most from here have never made it as a top furniture grade wood in the world - they're S%^t to work with, especially by hand. There are a couple... One well known one - Huon Pine, and one not so well known - NSW Rosewood. NSW Rosewood would be in my top 5 woods in the world. It's spectacular looking and a real treat to work with machines or hand tools. And Huon would be up there also. The rest... fence posts and firewood. The "oaks" aren't too bad but damn if they're not ugly! QLD Maple is a nice wood to work but is boring as Basswood. YMMV of course