Thread: Making a Lie-Nielsen Plane from Start to Finish

Thanks, Brian.

More reliance on craft skills than I expected, but the results speak for themselves. Was able to work out most of it, probably missed a few details - a voice-over may have helped.

Hi Graeme,

Yes, I was surprised how manual many of the processes were. I thought at first this was a historical look at LN's early days, especially the early scenes of casting the bodies. Very "dark Satanic mills".......

Agree a voice-over would be good.

Regards,

Brian

Originally Posted by homey

...... Yes, I was surprised how manual many of the processes were. I thought at first this was a historical look at LN's early days, especially the early scenes of casting the bodies. Very "dark Satanic mills"....... ......

I think they maybe concentrated on some of those aspects to encourage the "hand-made" feel, & let's face it, watching a thumping great CNC milling machine plane soles & beds soon gets the eyes glazing!

There are processes that don't lend themselves easily to automation, methinks. How much can you automate the casting process? That bloke packing the sand boxes made it look easy, but I reckon it requires some pretty skilled operators with fine judgement skills. And watching the slag being scooped out manually made me feel a bit nervous, I wonder how many lapfuls of molten slag it takes to get the technique down pat?!

I have occasionally thought about doing some bronze or brass casting to make some plane bodies, just for fun, but I think the more 'primitive' cold-working methods are far safer for an ageing operator. So far, the only damage I've done to myself is the odd cut on a sharp edge or a glancing blow to my thumb when holding small workpieces too close to where the action is happening...


Cheers,

Originally Posted by homey

Hi Graeme,

I thought at first this was a historical look at LN's early days, especially the early scenes of casting the bodies. Very "dark Satanic mills".......

Yes, the casting process is an inherently dirty business. About 30 years ago we had some lacework corner pieces cast in iron by a foundry in Wagga Wagga. The place was totally Dickensian in the mould packing and release shed, one of the dirtiest working environments I've ever seen. There was no sign of cleaning up, they probably brought in a front end loader from time to time when the dross started to get a bit deep.

Sometime after that I had the opportunity to tour Bradkens foundry in Wodonga. They have only a relatively small electric furnace - still much bigger than the LN job though - as they only make smaller cast steel parts, mainly for the railway industry. The whole operation was much cleaner, more like the LN facility. One thing of note on the tour was the sampling of the furnace contents just prior to a pour. The chemicals to adjust the mix were supplied to the furnace in a paper bag thrown in through the briefly lifted lid. All very interesting.

Originally Posted by aldav

...... One thing of note on the tour was the sampling of the furnace contents just prior to a pour. The chemicals to adjust the mix were supplied to the furnace in a paper bag thrown in through the briefly lifted lid. All very interesting......

Yes, the LN bloke tossed in something in a package at one point (twice, actually, but I wasn't sure it was the same pour), which I assumed was some sort of flux to clean up oxides or something like that. How was the molten iron 'sampled' in the place you visited, aldav? You couldn't just drop a splash of the stuff in a refractometer to check its density or whatever...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

How was the molten iron 'sampled' in the place you visited, aldav?

H'mm? From memory they did a small pour into the traveling crucible and dipped that. Material in the crucible was returned to the furnace whilst awaiting the results of the test. It would be interesting to go back for another tour, but as far as I'm aware they don't run them anymore. If I remember correctly those particular tours were run as part of a 'celebration' of the industries operating in the Albury/Wodonga Growth Centre established by the Whitlam government. I also did a tour of the Borg Warner transmission factory. Pretty sure the Sanyo TV factory was long gone by the time they were running the tours.

Ian - was a bit surprised at the with the casting process when I watch the video - had an assumed the castings would be made in die in some sort of automated process. Googled around and sand casting is still the thing. The stuff is hot and well - the dies will melt. But the process can be very automated these days.
Drop forging is also a possibility for making plane bodies and this has happened in the past - makes a stronger body. Drop

The rest of Lie Nelson operation looks suitably hi tech. With a lot of monitoring,happening.

Hi Martin, yes, there aren't many things you can make a mould from that will take molten iron - good 'ol sand has been the go-to for a very long time for casting iron. The techniques were perfected in the 1800s, and it's capable of producing very fine products.

As to techniques like forging, I haven't enough knowledge to know how feasible it would be, or what the cost comparisons would be vs casting, but I would assume the way LN are doing it is their best alternative given the volume of production, etc. They do churn out a lot of planes, but I think they would still be considered 'boutique' makers compared with the really big players.

There's probably an element of tradition to consider as well, LN make a virtue of building time-tested Bailey style planes but doing it to a higher level - same mousetrap, just built more carefully. One important 'improvement' over the originals is in the use of malleable iron. This has been around for a long time (Norris & others used malleable cast bodies way back), but it involves extra steps (= cost) and was not considered sufficiently worthwhile for the everyday user. But it must be comforting to know your pricey bench plane will survive a trip to a concrete floor with little more than a bruise to show for it.

Cheers,
Ian

Originally Posted by IanW

As to techniques like forging, I haven't enough knowledge to know how feasible it would be, or what the cost comparisons would be vs casting, but I would assume the way LN are doing it is their best alternative given the volume of production, etc. They do churn out a lot of planes, but I think they would still be considered 'boutique' makers compared with the really big players.

Ian

I believe casting is the approved technique for production manufacturing on a cost basis. If you are making a one-off, then other methods are cheaper including waste moulds and forging.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Ian

I believe casting is the approved technique for production manufacturing on a cost basis. If you are making a one-off, then other methods are cheaper including waste moulds and forging.

Regards
Paul

For production, drop forging would be the most economical for plane beds- based on the references on looked at- the resulting product besides stronger is more precise + less machining time.

Based on the gander on the type machinery that Lie Nelson has, I would have not have thought a drop forging process would be significant capital investment- people and space tend to be the big costs ( ones you past the sometimes eye popping costs of the initial capital outlay).

Sand coating however may be more flexible and some of Lie Nelsons products unsuitable for a drop forging, while keeping "traditional" designs that would tip the balance back to where Lie Nelson is. Once your playing with non traditional plane designs though there is alot of Manufacturing options.

I'd think given the thin nature of the sides and bottom, relatively, drop forging or die forging something like a #8 would be hellish hard.

Steel makes a stickier plane on wood, too, which wouldn't be that desirable.

Not sure what type of ductile cast they use, but if if it's nodular, you can heat treat nodular cast and get durability in line with steels that are in the 50 hardness range.

I have a 275 pound anvil that's nodular iron and it's about 50 or 52 hardness or something. Not as hard as an old swedish cast steel anvil, but awfully good and probably half the price of a forged steel anvil. The ductile cast through hardens better, too, so there's less chance of having a hard top layer that still deforms as the stuff under it moves.

At any rate, I don't know what LN is using, but forging something neatly in that size in relatively low volume would be fairly difficult, and there would be the task of making dies that would hold up to it.

Originally Posted by D.W.

I'd think given the thin nature of the sides and bottom, relatively, drop forging or die forging something like a #8 would be hellish hard.

They could drop forge a No 8 plane in 1922..
Vaughan & Bushnell No. 8 'Uncle Sam' Jointer Plane - V&B Planes

Might have been one or two production improvements since then,.

you're right, i forgot about them and their brochure does say they're drop forged. I wonder about the ability to do that in the US now, though. LN and LV can't manage to do anything but cut and shape. I don't know that either even does any heat treatment on site at this point (most don't here, it's cheaper to hire it done).

what is in the back of my mind talking about this is the fact that everyone making chisels in the US is doing it from bar stock other than hardware store stuff. It seems like a missed opportunity to drop forge chisels like they do in europe.

Nodular cast iron, on the other hand, is done all over the place here now. I didn't know anything about what it was until buying an anvil, as it's poo pooed by some folks for anvils. Makes a decent anvil, though.

I see the invention date of nodular (ductile hardenable) cast wasn't until the mid 1940s - not sure when it went into use, but it would probably obsolete forged planes at this point.

VB planes are one of the few I haven't had.

Series 900 'Vanadium' Bench Planes - V&B Planes

Their ad copy is interesting!

Vanadium as an additive was kind of in its infancy, sort of like tungsten was previously. The "tungsten steel" stuff made its rounds, even in razors (not so good there - any more than a trace and there are big disparate carbides here and there).

It'd be interesting to have someone XRF a VB iron to see how much vanadium is in it - probably just a little. it wouldn't have improved a carefully made plane iron, but it would've improved one made on the quick.