Thread: Liogier handlemaker rasps

Nah, Ern, I got kids, there just not looming....yet.

Now leave me alone a minute willya, I'm trying to get this pic done.

(apologies to Derek if this getting towards a hijack, but they are rasps, and they are handles)

Roight den. Just yankin' yer chain about the crack Ian. The blasted bulge won't go away though

This is from (l to r):
250mm Que de Rat 10g, handle in Mulga
200mm Very Tapered 15g, handle in Hairy Oak
150mm Cabinet Maker's 15g, handle in She-Oak




and the 6" Cab Mak by itself (while I'm having a Cab Sav):



This one is one of my faves - in the flesh the grain is gorgeous (as usual my pics don't do it justice, and I never seem to get a sharp result after uploading). Fitting them gets a bit ridiculous really. I spend more time decided on which part of the grain to show on top than I do drilling the 'ole out. I've been stepping the 'ole up in 0.5mm increments for small handles and 1mm for larger. Clamp the whole rasp (by the edges for large and by the faces for fine rasps) in a wooden faced vice, and tap the handle on with poly shot hammer (size of hammer to suit the handle), The Mulga one on the Ratty wasn't on far enough so I took Rat52's advice ("Don't force it, get a bigger hammer") and there was a satisfying "chink" as it broke away some sort of barrier in the stepped 'ole.

I tell you what, this variety of timber species is giving me an instant knowledge of how the different timbers work. I now understand why you like working Mulga Ian. The swarf turns to powder and doesn't jam in the flutes. She-oak seems to turn into nice easily ejected chips, but Bull-Oak jammed a bit. I'm use to the ridiculous jamming of Spotted Gum you see.

Edit: I should have said thanks to Shedhand for the rough sawn Huon slab as a background. Thanks Sheddy, found a use for the big one already eh?

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

......but just have to fix a split...in the She-oak.....and a bulge.......

You are just winding me up, but I'm not biting (much).

Ok - I'm going to be very quiet for a coupe of days, & during that time I hope to get my part of the testing finished..
Cheers,

Beautiful handles (and rasps). I recall being shown and taught by my old pop that when fitting a handle to a rasp/file that you drill the hole undersize then heat the tang hot enough to burn its way into a firm permanent seat.
Times change I guess!
Cheers
Sheddie

Originally Posted by Shedhand

Beautiful handles (and rasps). I recall being shown and taught by my old pop that when fitting a handle to a rasp/file that you drill the hole undersize then heat the tang hot enough to burn its way into a firm permanent seat.
Times change I guess!
Cheers
Sheddie

Sheddie, I saw my old man do likewise, & some folks still do it, but it does carry a risk of damaging the tool (not at all sure how these fancy new sapphire-coated thingies would take to being cooked!).
It really isn't necessary, to burn in a tang, IMO. These days most of us have a decent set of drills, surely? Using a couple sizes of bit, you can safely remove enough wood to get a firm tapped-on fit. Handles last indefinitely, but not so rasps & files, so I like my handles to be a good fit, but also able to be removed fairly easily to put on the replacement.....

Cheers,

Yeah, I was shown the heat and plunge technique too. Sounds like butchery to me.

In general for bench chisels I prefer a medium density timber, a two step hole reasonably accurately drilled and then rely on the forward drive of use to finish the seating. Or dropping the handle end on my carpet square in front of the bench several times.

So now it’s my turn to give some impressions of the Liogier handle-making rasps. The best way to test-drive them is to make some handles, of course, so here we go:

The tools I used up til now for basic shaping were 2 rasps and a half-round file (pic.1). The Nicholson #49 patternmaker’s rasp for most of the shaping and a small Italian-made rasp for the tight spots. The ‘grain’ of the small rasp isn’t specified, but it is a little bit finer than Liogier’s #9 grain.

Apart from the half-round curved rasps to test, there is a flat rasp, which I have not included in this review. The example we have is a bit too fine for the rough work, so I didn’t use it immediately, then sort of forgot it was available as the work progressed. The flat rasp has a safe side & the curve going for it, and some may find it quite handy for smoothing the sides of the grip.

In making a couple of handles, I also used a pair of recently purchased Liogier rasps which are not part of the review set. I did this for two reasons. First, I wanted to compare them with the curved rasps, and second, the coarsest rasp in the saw-handle lot is a #9 grain, which is ok, but a bit slow at knocking out the initial shape the way I like. My two straight rasps are, a 200mm (#9 grain and the only rasp in the group that is NOT sapphire-coated) and a 250mm (#6 grain) half-round. I will explain where they fit in as we go along. Lined up in pic. 2, is the test team, which consists of the 3 curved half-round rasps (#9, #12, #15) plus a curved round (rat-tail) rasp on the left, & my two straight rasps on the right.

After cutting out the basic shape of a closed handle, I smooth any rough spots to the traced profile line, then cut the blade & spline slots, and drill the screw holes. This is the part of the handle-making process most likely to go pear-shaped, & it’s a little less annoying to have to chuck it out at an early stage if it does go wrong! Next, I add some layout lines that will help me keep the shaping symmetrical. I do this with a pencil held so that I can use a finger as a ‘fence’ to keep the line a constant distance from edges. First, I draw a centre line, then another at half the distance between centre and edge. These lines are made on front, back & sides, as shown in pic 3.

The first stage of shaping begins with rasping off all the wood, in a straight chamfer, to this first set of lines. The ‘outside’ of the handle presents no problems for a straight rasp, and here my two new rasps made short work of the task. There is no need for a fine surface at this stage, and despite its size, the 250mm #6 was very controllable and could get into the curves, thanks to its finely-tapered tip (pic 4). In this respect it has an advantage over the Nicholson #49 which has both a “flatter” curve to the back, and a less tapered tip. The surface it left was actually as good as that left by the Nicholson, which has a slightly finer tooth size. The finer 200mm #9 grain tidied up quite nicely after the #6. I’m very happy with this rasp, it was a very good choice for handle making because its size and shape allow it to get into all the tight spots, and while the grain is moderately fine, it still cuts quite quickly.

Continued..

Now for the tricky bit, which is the inside of the grip. I began with the #9 curved rasp, and at first I was quite pleased with the way the curve kept the end out of the way of the wood opposite the edge I was working on (pic 1a), & it was pretty easy to get this first step completed. Using a combination of the rasps on hand, I soon had two handles chamfered to the first set of layout lines (pic 2a).

The next step is to round off the chamfers formed in stage 1, & blend them into the curves that delineate a comfortable grip. Here, I ran up against geometry when trying to blend the sides into the curve . The rasp needs to be held ‘flatter’, for the outside part, but because the curve includes a little less than half the working length of the rasp, I could not use the wider part of the rasp without fouling the other side of the cut-out – it became, effectively, a straight rasp when inserted into the cut-out to that depth. I could keep the teeth cutting where I wanted by using the very tip, but it is difficult to fair a sweeping curve with such a narrow part of the rasp. In fact, it was barely better than the curved rat-tail, which I used for the tight inside curve at the bottom of the grip (pic 3a ). I switched to my 200mm straight rasp and found it almost as convenient as the curved one. The good news is that the surface left by either of these 9-grain rasps was very clean, much better than I was able to achieve with my old kit (pic 4a shows the surface straight off the #9s). The two finer curved rasps were able to improve the quality of the surface further – compare with pic 5a, in which the front of the grip has been smoothed with the 12 grain, and the back with the 15. The difference in surface quality is more obvious in the flesh than in the picture.

continued...

With the basic shape of the handle established, it’s time to move on to final clean up –the most tedious part of the exercise. At this point I bring out a few extras to follow the rasps. These consist of some narrow scrapers made from scraps , a knife, a couple of grades of cloth-backed paper, and some fine steel wool (pic 1b). The Nicholson left a surface pretty much the same as the #9 Liogier, which I would clean up with a double-cut file, but the file can’t get into tight spots, so I would start with 120 paper, followed by the scrapers and finer grades down to 400, finishing with the steel wool for polished surface. In this case, the #15 left a surface that responded to scraping or 180 grit paper in some spots. The surface you get and how quickly it will clean up depends on the wood you are working with. Pic 2b shows the grip part of the She-oak handle close to finished. It needs only a final fine sand & polish with steel wool for a perfect surface.

Just for fun, I also started shaping a handle in Black Walnut (Juglans sp.). This is softer than the Qld. variety (Endriandra ) and responded very well to all of the rasps. Pic 3b shows the three handles at various stages of shaping – the She Oak has had the grip scraped close to finish standard, the Qld Walnut (darker wood) is rasped to the 12 & 15 and the ‘real’ Walnut rasped to #9 level only.

So, a bit of summing-up is called for. First, I think I should make it very clear that using these tools for a single day on 3 types of wood does not constitute an exhaustive trial, so please treat my views cautiously, and wait for some more opinions, before making up your own minds. The first question to address, is, does the curve make a worthwhile difference to the convenience of use? I will give a qualified ‘yes’ to that, however, the advantage is not great – it helps, but not as much as I anticipated. Having the ‘safe’ side is a bonus, because I still made contact with the opposite edge, occasionally, but the dings it left weren’t as serious as they might have been.

I cannot make any comment on whether the sapphire coating increases the life span, since rasps last quite a long time & it will take months to years of use to sort that one out. One thing I did notice during my test is that the sapphire coated rasps seemed to clog more, and were harder to brush out than the teeth on my uncoated 9 grain. The last pic (4b) shows a close-up of the coated handle-rasps and my plain 9 grain – they have all been brushed with a (nylon) nail brush, which cleaned the uncoated one ok, but left a lot of wood in the coated set. I was using them on a moderately ‘cloggy’ wood (She-oak), so I’ll be interested to hear how they perform in other woods known to cause clogging.

Finally, could I go on making saw handles for the rest of my life without curved rasps? Yes, I could. Despite my initial enthusiasm for the idea, I am thinking at this stage that I will stick with straight rasps, at least partly because they are less restricted in the jobs they can do. If I made handles all day every day, or had unlimited funds, I would get a couple, one fine and one coarse (I’m thinking about 8 grain and 12 grain). Until then, I am very happy with my choice of un-curved rasps, and will certainly add to my collection of Mr. Liogier’s products in the near future!

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

The rasp needs to be held ‘flatter’, for the outside part, but because the curve includes a little less than half the working length of the rasp, I could not use the wider part of the rasp without fouling the other side of the cut-out – it became, effectively, a straight rasp when inserted into the cut-out to that depth. I could keep the teeth cutting where I wanted by using the very tip, but it is difficult to fair a sweeping curve with such a narrow part of the rasp.

Ian, I'm trying to get a mental picture of this situation, but not successfully. It sounds like one of four things might assist:
1. the rasp has the curve going for longer but at the same rate of curve (i.e. the radius of the curve is the same)
2. the curve is a little more pronounced (i.e. smaller radius of the curve)
3. if it didn't taper so much at the tip (i.e. nip a bit off the tip)
4. either a 200 or 275mm rasp was curved, rather than 150mm as you used. Note that this would make the profile of the rasp a little larger as well, and therefore the radius of the round side is a little larger with each increase:
Half-Round profiles are:
150mm 16x4.5 (radius 9.5mm)
175mm is 18x5 (radius 10.5mm)
200mm is 21x6 (radius 12mm)
225mm is 21x6 (radius 12mm)

Then of course there are the other half round profiles to consider, and these can all be curved:
Cabinet Makers (round side has a bigger radius, so it's a little "flatter" if you like
Modellers (round side has a smaller radius)
Very Tapered (but not suitable for this I wouldn't think)

I wonder if a Cab Makers 175mm (profile 20x4) with the last 10-15mm nipped off the tip might have been more suitable in your situation. The half-round side of this is a flatter curve than you were using - the radius is 14.5mm.

The prices of curved rasps is the same as if they were straight: what is gained by not stitching one side is lost in the trickier tempering of curved rasps.

Cheers, Brett

Brett, the problem occurred only when the rasp was presented at a low angle and pushed well forward into the cut-out; it runs out of curve. The solution might be to curve the whole thing, at a diameter a bit less than it has now. It worked as planned on the innermost segment, it was only when fairing the outer segment that I struck trouble. When using straight rasps, I manage this task by angling the rasp, and only using the first few cm of it, which is ok when using a larger tool, because you have a reasonable width of teeth contacting the wood. I could have managed, but the tips of these small rasps are a bit finer than I'd like, so it makes the job slower & it's more difficult to cut a smooth surface with a narrow tip.

However, the idea of having multiple testers is to figure out what works best for most users. Othes may not find they have any problems because of the way they use them, or because they prefer a more rounded profile for their grips, rather than the more parabolic curve I like. I think the basic idea is sound, and we may be able to figure out a curve that suits most, or maybe individuals could simply order what diameter curve they like, since each rasp is a hand-made affair (though it must get trickier to stitch them if the curve is too tight?). Anyway, let's see what the concensus is, first, before getting too excited about modifications just yet.....

Cheers,

I realised I didn't make myself very clear about my problem concerning the curve of the rasps, so I'll try to explain it a bit better.

The curve is sufficient during the initial shaping, which I showed in part 2, where I chew off a chamfer which is essentially 45% to the surface. The problem arises when I move to fairing that chamfer into the rounded shape. The shape I like for a grip is not a continuous semi-circular shape. It begins as a slightly parabolic shape near the bottom (front side) of the grip, then fairs into a more flattened parabola towards the top.

The two attached pics show the rasp has reached its limits, and can't flatten the sides down any more without fouling the other side of the handle, unless I use the tip of it only. The arrow on the seond picture is pointing to the edge of the curve, which I want to bring back some more.

So for me, I think a bit more curve would do the trick, if that doesn't complicate things too much for the rasp-maker...

Cheers,

Hi Ian,

At the risk of asking a dumb question given my limited handle-making experience. What if the rasp was, say 30% shorter, i.e. the top 1/3 cut off and the remainder given the curve of the end section (cut off bit) with the result of a fatter taper for the end but the width kept the same?

Would that increase the usable rasp lenght and provide a greater width of contact with the wood, i.e. good accessability plus good stock removal capacity?

Not sure I have explained that clear enough but I hope you get the idea.

Cheers
Pops

Pops, if I have understood you correctly, I think your idea is only a partial solution. Shortening the rasp will allow use of the wider part for the sides, but I still wouldn't be able to lay the rasp over as far as I'd like if the diameter of the curve remains as it is now. Only a tighter curve would achieve what I want.

This morning I re-read Derek's post. I could not remember exactly what he had written, and deliberately didn't look at it until after I had done my own, so that I could be as unbiased as possible. He seems to have been quite happy with the curve, though I do note that he didn't actually make a closed handle, just eyeballed the rasps in a finished one. It wasn't until I got to the second stage of handle-forming that I hit the 'problem'.

Using a curved rasp is a bit counter-intuitive for an old git who has never weilded anything other than straight ones before, and I worry that increasing the diameter of the curve might make the tool more awkward, and perhaps more specialised (though the design is pretty specialised already!). However, let's wait & see what others think, before making too many conclusions - I may well hold the dissenting judgement, here.

Cheers,