Thread: Luban planes

Derek, there's a spectrum of possibilities here. What I wrote shouldn't be interpreted as "LN helped WC send planes to china to have them copied end to end and possibly made there".

What I think is more possible is the two were in initial talks about WC making volume demands (which retailers often do - they don't just want volume, but they want volume and priority over others and WC had trouble stocking the planes in some of the stores and was demanding guaranteed stock from LN. This kind of "guarantee or else" isn't very maine in the US).

The copied items that were sold at JWW were a different issue for LV.

Too, I don't take the word of a store working as having the same credibility, but it wasn't the store worker who mentioned that WC wanted to have some priority or guarantee of quantity (the latter is what was mentioned to me, but the former comes along with that if you don't have quantity for everyone).

I would bet discussions of how to meet quantity didn't get very far and things went sideways from there - I wasn't given the account of those details, just that LN had stipulations on how they wanted their planes to be displayed and demonstrated (as in, out in the open to get hands on and use) and WC had demands on quantity because most stores generally had little desirable in person (there were no bench planes at WC when I got the block plane - just two saws and the little block plane and maybe some trinkets). WC

There's lots of ways this could go - and I know none of them for certain (again, carve out the blatant copying of LV's designs - that's different as you could make the case that LN didn't really do much to change bedrocks and they're stanley's designs. If anything, I think a perfectly made bedrock would be a nicer plane - with the hollow knurled wheel, etc - we know from LN's statements why we won't see rosewood handles, though (everyone who makes them develops a sensitivity and it's not sustainable to make them).

There was probably legal threats/letters or possibly more which means you and I will never get a complete accounting from both sides, but I envision something like this *could have* happened:
LN: you need to make our planes accessible and demonstrate them the way we say you should
LN to JWW: stop selling our planes to gray market sellers (and whoever else did that - one small retailer here got LN planes through Japan woodworker and could still sell them below list. They were also able to get harima stuff, which was probably also just wholesaled by JWW)
WC to LN: We want guaranteed stock fulfillment to keep a full array of planes in the stores - they sell too fast and we're left with empty shelf space and the franchisees are unhappy - they're losing profit opportunity
LN: We can't guarantee supply and don't want to overextend ourselves (perhaps a comment about the casting operation in maine - which LN contracted and may still contract would be involved here).
WC: we may be able to help find casting operations and toolmakers that could provide rough parts and help you get more through maine
LN: maybe we could consider something like that
(WC sends plane to china, factory basically copies it but takes some liberties and it's not quite as good)
"See here, we had this plane made - they could make whole planes or any parts to help increase quantity or maybe we could have a licensed line of the same planes made overseas"
LN: Blows stack over copied plane that looks like theirs
WC: Or we could just do it on our own if you won't work with us
LN: Or we could send you legal letters, and we've been thinking about bringing most of the sales back to our website, anyway

Nobody told me any of that. The WC worker on SMC who was merely employed by a franchise as a part timer claimed that LN sent the plane to china themselves. I SERIOUSLY doubt that.

I see things like the above happen fairly regularly with clients - one side wants to do something, the other drags their feet. As soon as the foot dragging side says "maybe there are things we could consider, we'll defer talking about it", the foot on the gas side comes back with "you said you were OK with this".

I don't like it. I've never bought any WR anything because of it - the brand stinks to me because they could literally have dead copied a stanley bedrock, and one with a heavier casting (it's not like they can't be found). Why not? Were they afraid of stanley? I don't have a clue - but if the relationship doesn't work with LN, making something that's the colors of an LN tool with frog bits copied from LN doesn't make me feel warm - there is a stanley type that nobody is making and can't possibly be patented that you could just send and have copied from top top bottom, proportions at all, and if it pleases the beginners, the iron can be made to .11" instead of .08, and made harder, and the dumpy slab cap can be added, too, if it's too difficult to make a proper sprung cap and explain how to set it.

Again, the only things I saw relayed were WC: we need more of them, and LN: we don't like gray market selling and at WC stores, the planes need to be demonstrated in a certain way (and that way did not mix with behind a glass case) and "we're looking at what's comfortable for expansion".

That ultimately led to LN determining, yes, they could grow, yes they would still retail through people only they chose to retail through (craftsmanstudio, etc), and they had the market presence to direct buyers to demonstrations and their website.

The only thing I saw of the whole LV copy debacle was that strikingly similar things showed up on JWW's page and Rob publicly said that they were not there with his permission and he wasn't satisfied with the pace and response about getting them taken off timely (as he said that, the items were still stocked).

Every single item involved went back to qs-tool. Who knows who sent them all of the bits, or if they bought them on their own or what. I will never know - you will know more about LV's side. I talked to the president of WC at the time and won't mention anything he said to me as it's not really germane and doesn't add much to the above, anyway (nothing was conflicting with any of it).

I came away from all of it with LN feeling like they had better options, maybe their concerns about demonstration hadn't been met, and that one thing you don't want to do as a healthy (but not cash pouring out of every seam) business is take on a huge risk and loan and probably not have an agreement that matches the duration of it. But that part again is just my interpretation - lots of businesses in the US will do whatever they can in the near term and assume they'll solve the long term later. Maine is more old school.

LN did one thing that I didn't care too much for - they dictated that planes could only be sold for list, even from retailers continuing to sell them, and that stung me as a buyer as I'm an experimenter. If they are off list with no sales tax, I can play with one for a year or two and be out little. When tax and list are added to the equation, then, that effectively eliminates the ability to do that with so little exposure, but as they have their trade dress and its their brand, I respect their ability to do that. I would much rather be involved in their style of business than the franchise arrangement that WC has - if you have franchises (the president never said a thing to me about franchises - this is my comment) - now you have two customers to please, and if you run a website business, too, that's potentially in conflict with them. Too complicated, too many stakeholders given the drop ship world we live in now with some things, and what do you do when you want to clearance something? I wanted to try the koch system when WC said they were going to clear them out. There is no support and little documentation for them, so I contacted their corporate and said "I'm playing with buffers for sharpening, and I would like to know if you would unload these at a discount given there will be no support, no supplies and no documentation. AT 10% off of list, I'm hoping for a little better". Their customer service folks said "I show at least 7 of these at brick and mortar locations, so we can't really offer a bigger discount". Reading between the lines, they were agreeing with me but letting me know that if locations had something like that already in inventory, they couldn't undercut them, unlist them and leave the stores trying to figure out how to sell them. Any other business would've cut the price of them drastically just to get them out of their hair.

I found the WC President to be friendly and honest, in general. At SMC, as soon as KO recognized him, his ID was ghosted, so he had no ability to post anything at all (obviously, LV is a sponsor there - LN stays off of forums as a matter of policy, and the only way that WC's side would've been told publicly on that forum at least (which is where the discussion was going on) would've been to pay a large sum to be an advertiser.