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  1. #1
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    Default Who Does Machine Sharpened Tenon Saw

    Hi, Is there anyone out there set up to sharpen rip and cross cut tenon saws. I can sharpen a saw but I'd like to get them sharpened perfectly and start from there.

    Thanks in advance

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  3. #2
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    Default

    Might need to get the mods to move this, probably needs to goto the general woodworking or sharpening forums

  4. #3
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    Default

    Just take it to your local Saw Doctor

  5. #4
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    deerndingo

    I think just by wanting a machine sharpened saw you have excluded all possibility of deep gullets. In teeth filed horizontally the gullet can only be the depth of the tooth. The only variable is the shape of the gullet, which is dependent on how fine the file is. Ie: using a double extra slim taper file compared to extra slim taper or slim taper. Your saw request is for teeth that are probably a minimum of 13ppi so that automatically dictates a very fine file (DEST) or for very small teeth a jeweler's saw. which is finer again. Machines only saw horizontally.

    I think you are thinking in terms of this style of filing, which is commonly called sloped gullets:

    australian docking saw 2.JPG

    It is characterised by what looks to be an unevenness in the teeth at first glance, which of course is an optical illusion. While many people maintain there is an increased depth of gullet to assist in the removal of sawdust, I am not so sure about this. Although the gullet appears lower, I believe it is arguable that the other side is higher and the two balance each other out. I am on the fence as to whether the tooth shape ejects sawdust better. For me the prime advantage in this style of sharpening is the different tooth shape and I believe cutting is improved over the machine style straight across. It is a personal opinion and not universally shared.

    Once the number of teeth reach about 15ppi or higher, many people sharpen the teeth straight across in a rip style as there is not too much advantage to use a crosscut style. Dovetail saws are usually filed rip. Having said that I recently saw a 15ppi crosscut saw filed superbly with sloped gullets.

    The short answer to all of this is that sloped gullets are done by hand sharpening.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  6. #5
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    Tom

    "It's good enough" is low aim

  7. #6
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    back in Alberta for a while
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by deerndingo View Post
    Hi, Is there anyone out there set up to sharpen rip and cross cut tenon saws. I can sharpen a saw but I'd like to get them sharpened perfectly and start from there.
    deern'
    IanW was commenting the other day that getting a hand saw really sharp is a skill that is easy to learn and perhaps essential to today's woodworker given the demise of "your local Saw Doctor" in many parts of the country. What with hard point saws and the like.

    I'm not sure how good a teacher IanW is, but his credentials include writing for Australian Wood Review.
    IanW is in Brisbane, so perhaps send him a PM asking for help.


    Please don't confuse this ian with IanW
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  8. #7
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    While learning to sharpen should be something on the list for every regular saw user, there's a steep learning curve to negotiate, as I frequently stress, and starting as a raw beginner on a saw with badly-formed teeth can be a recipe for tears (damhik!), so I think the OP's idea of getting some nice, even teeth put on his saw to help ease into it has merit. When I made my first few saws I had the blade blanks toothed for me, which not only made a better job in the end, it saved a few files, as I discovered when I began toothing them from scratch!

    There are at least two places in Brisbane that can handle saws up to about 15tpi, one on the west side (Richlands) & one in the north (Virginia). They are just the two I've had dealings with in the past, there may be many others.

    These days, the blokes operating the machines are well-schooled in circular saws, but don't seem to be highly clued-up on the push'n'pull variety, so try to discuss beforehand what rake angles you want applied. From my experience, you may or may not get the exact angle you ask for, but it should be somewhere in the ball park, and it's easy to ease the rake one way or the other during the subsequent sharpening steps.

    Maintaining the correct rake angle without help is a knack to be acquired, so you need an aid at first. You can pay a lot of money for a nice gadget like this, but the simplest guide is just a small, squared stick. Mark a pencil line across it at the desired rake angle, drill a small hole beside it & press the file in with one side matching the pencil line: Rake angle guide.jpg

    Now all you have to do is keep the stick level with he top of the saw & the correct angle will be automatically applied to each tooth.

    Fixing the teeth on an old saw with very uneven teeth IS a very useful exercise, if you are prepared to put in the time & use up a file or two. You will learn much about filing & improve your touch. I advise starting with a rip profile because it's the simplest.

    You first "top" or "joint" the teeth with a largish flat file. You can buy file-guides, or make one like this from a scrap of hardwood: Jointing guide.jpg

    I've used a couple of 8mm bolts in holes tapped directly in the wood, but ordinary wood screws will do the job.

    File slowly & carefully along the teeth, pressing the guide against the saw to keep the file square, until until you can see a shiny flat on the top of every tooth. Some flats will be wide, due to shallow gullets & some barely visible, marking the teeth that won't need much attention. Now using he same stick-guide on your saw file, go along and even them up. It takes a few attempts before you get your eye in & can judge quickly which way to lean on the file to correct the uneven teeth & restore even spacing. Don't try to fix them in one pass, give each tooth a stroke or two, pressing (lightly!) straight down on the teeth that appear to be even, or pressing to left or right as necessary, in the shallow gullets.

    It appears a bit daunting at first, but as I said, a very useful exercise if you want to get your sharpening skills up to speed.

    I wouldn't worry about sloped gullets until you are well-versed in sharpening. You can't use them on rip teeth anyway, it would alter the flat tops you are striving for on the teeth, and to be honest, I don't think they add all that much to performance of small crosscut saws (but sure look spiffy when well-done!). You'll have enough to worry about on your first few crosscuts with fleam & rake, and a third angle just adds to the chances of stuffing it up.

    Cheers,
    IW

  9. #8
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    The old man used to use that same method as above, but he’d put a bit of waxed up mdf on the stick side, and set the saw up the correct distance above it so the stick could rest on the mdf and run in and out on it, keeping the file at the right angle, worked for him, works for me too, good tip IanW.

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