Thread: measuring and setout tools

Originally Posted by bridger

..... bluing helps keep rust at bay.....

Bridger, that's what I always thought, too, but some 'blueing' seems to be more effective than others. The spring steel I've been using for some of my saws comes blued, but it rusts just as easily as the bare metal. Do you know why, or is this a question I should pose on the metal-working side of the forum?

Originally Posted by bridger

..... complex shaping of handles improves grip. brass doesn't rust. what may seem like decorative extravagance often has root in very real practicalities.

True enough, but it doesn't take much more than a microsecond for some practical touches to evolve into a decorative, and sometimes a truly extravagant one, does it? I'm not unhappy about that - nothing wrong with decoration as long as it doesn't become the dominant driver at the expense of practicality. I've always said that tools that appeal to me aesthetically as well as practically encourage me to get the best performance I can out of them. I feel I owe it to them to use them as well as I can.....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Trav, my answer to you would be the same as any 'what do I start with?' question. Start with what you really need, and add to that as the need arises. What do you need to mark out? There are a few essentials, such as a reliable square, a knife, a sliding bevel (possibly not esential for everyone), an accurate rule and a marking gauge or two (one cutting & one point) and a pair of dividers. Add something to get accurate angles from & there would be few layout problems you couldn't solve withthat lot. Most of us have way too many layout tools - some of it is for convenience, like having several marking gauges, but mostly I suspect, it's because we can't resist the combination of brass & nice wood or the delight of a piece of over-precise engineering......

Cheers,

I also agree with Ian with one slight modification. A quality marking gauge is a must. It is the marking out tool I use the most. I had to decide which marking gauges to get as I had a limited budget. I wanted a scribe point and a cutting point, as Ian suggested, but couldn't afford both so I purchased a scribe point gauge and a pencil gauge. I thought the pencil gauge would come in handy occasionally but I find I am using it most of all and can highly recommend it. I intend to buy a cutting gauge when finances allow as well as a few other pieces from Colen.

Thanks for all these comments above, they have been a real eyeopener.

Can anyone recommend where to get two decent marking gauges (one cutting & one point)?

I also need a sliding bevel gauge that actually locks in place for all angles. Can someone recommend one of these too?

I am looking for tools not top of the line, nothing flash, but practical and with good solid workmanship that will last a long time.

Originally Posted by IanW

Bridger, that's what I always thought, too, but some 'blueing' seems to be more effective than others. The spring steel I've been using for some of my saws comes blued, but it rusts just as easily as the bare metal. Do you know why, or is this a question I should pose on the metal-working side of the forum?

Careful Ian - seems to be quite the conversation starter ... (see the post hierarchy) ... Re: Phosphoric acid - Bob Smalser? *PIC*

Looks like bluing is of some use, but should be oiled also ... Bluing (steel) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Bluing is most commonly used by gun manufacturers, gunsmiths and gun owners to improve the cosmetic appearance of and provide a measure of corrosion resistance to their firearms. It was also used by machinists, who protected and beautified tools made for their own use. Bluing also helps to maintain the metal finish by resisting tangential scratching, and also helps to reduce glare to the eyes of the shooter when looking down the barrel of the gun. All blued parts still need to be properly oiled to prevent rust. Bluing, being a chemical conversion coating, is not as robust against wear and corrosion resistance as plated coatings, and is typically no thicker than 2.5 micrometres (0.0001 inches). For this reason, it is considered not to add any appreciable thickness to precisely-machined gun parts."

Paul

also:
Rust-proofing Tools by Bob Smalser - Restoring vintage and antique woodworking tools - wkFineTools.com

Bluing handsaw blades -- purely cosmetic or functional?

Originally Posted by Dengue

Thanks for all these comments above, they have been a real eyeopener.

Can anyone recommend where to get two decent marking gauges (one cutting & one point)?

I also need a sliding bevel gauge that actually locks in place for all angles. Can someone recommend one of these too?

I am looking for tools not top of the line, nothing flash, but practical and with good solid workmanship that will last a long time.

Hi Dengy

As Ian and I have demonstrated, it is fairly easy - and satisfying - to make your own gauges.

I can also recommend the 35th Anniversary wheel gauge (in stainless steel) from Lee Valley. These are not going to be continued, and the price ($30) is so good that they must be losing on each one. Look on their site.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Yep - as Derek sez, you can easily make yourself a very servicable marking gauge or two. A marking gauge is about as basic a tool as it gets and doesn't have to be fancy. As long as it locks securely, accuracy is assured. This was probably the first tool I ever made, and though definitely not beautiful, it worked fine. I got a little fancier, later and recently changed to a new style, again. I know of 4 different ways of making a fence/shaft locking system (& there are robably more!), but any will work satisfactory. A quick search of the 'Net will surely return a few good sets of instructions on how to go about it. I've also made my own sliding bevels, which again don't have to be highly sophisticated to do the job well enough.

This is a timely topic - I am currently in the middle of making a bunch of new gauges myself. I've always wanted to copy the idea of the old Stanley 77 mortise gauge, and made a start on one a few days ago. It's coming along, but turned out to be a bit more of a challenge than anticipated! While I was at it, I decided to use up a pile of small scraps of brass & wood I have accumulated, and make a batch of gauges, so in a few more days I will post the results. I can't do a WIP unfortunately, because I didn't take enough pics along the way, but I have a few shots of what's involved which might give you a few ideas.....

Cheers,
Edit - here's the Norse Woodsmith's take on making his own, which has a few good ideas you could borrow.....

I'm sorting out mags for sale for the WA Woodcarving Guild ... and saw this last night ... by Jim Kingshott

(Jan 1995)

Paul Homes (Homesy135) had made a few of the same thing - I saw them a few months ago -

supposed to be good for use one-handed.

Paul

2012-10-08_19.39.27[1].jpg 2012-10-08 20.00.05.jpg 2012-10-08 20.01.36.jpg

Well I took the advice, found some bits in the firewood pile and with hand tools (drillpress apart) had a go at marking guages. Total cost, time only. All scrap wood and an old drill bit as a cutter. I ground it on the wet grinder so no tempering required. Oops not a hand tool either.
I have a mixed bag of measuring and marking thingies, none of them real expensive. Steel and wood rules, a reasonable square I bought 38 years ago, builders square, 2 perspex school set squares to check things are true, digital callipers(love them), compasses & deviders, spirit levels, marking knife, plumb bob and 3 marking guages.
I find the pin guages good on long grain but can skip on end grain so cutter guage is the go for this one. I have a Japaneese style 2 cutter guage but find the shape a bit aquard as the head is so wide. An old guage of mine has been fitted with a pencil to the tail end and this I find very handy. Only down side is I sometimes get a jab from the pin so a dedicated pencil guage is on the way too.
I recently say a French pattern guage with a cross wedge as oposed to the in line wedge on old English guages. Looked like a good design so gave it a go.
Regards
John

Originally Posted by orraloon

Well I took the advice, found some bits in the firewood pile and with hand tools (drillpress apart) had a go at marking guages.

Good on you, John, - it turned out a lot better than my first try at a gauge.

I recently switched to using the stubs of broken drills for cutters - used to use bits of old hacksaw blade, but it's a lot easier drilling a hole for a cutter than digging out a square tapered one.

Drill bits should be high-speed steel, so unless you are really brutal, you are unlikely to soften them by grinding - HSS will tolerate cherry red without softening, however, the round part above the lands is much softer than the business end. The stubs are still hard enough to make good cutters, just not as hard as you might have expected.

Cheers,

Ian,
It is hardish as a file was having a hard time on it. It did mark it but not easy. Ill see how it goes keeping an edge. I can always temper it if I have to. Just have to sweep up the shed defore lighting up.
Regards
John

Originally Posted by orraloon

Ian,
It is hardish as a file was having a hard time on it. It did mark it but not easy. Ill see how it goes keeping an edge. I can always temper it if I have to. Just have to sweep up the shed defore lighting up.
Regards
John

John - it will probably be adequate as-is - I've used various things for points & cutters over the years, and they have all been ok. I used a flattened nail in my first gauge before switching to hacksaw blade. It worked, but I didn't try to cut veneers or make deep cuts for hinge mortises like I do with the harder cutters I use now. It may need a touch-up every few years, but you should be able to live with that....

Cheers,