Thread: measuring and setout tools

Originally Posted by ch!ppy

is that important? ...btw, i'm just curious, why do people all love the CC so much and in general brass squares when they never seem to actually use them, when ever i see a pic on the net by the guys that own them they always seem to be using the old, but reliable combination square!

Well I use my CC 6" square daily, Chippy. Ands I like it because as I've said elswwhere, it is accurate & recalibratable. I wasn't fussed about the brass blade at first, but it actually makes sense, because brass is a self-lubricating metal, so not only do scribing tools run easily against it, it wears far less than you might expect.

I use my combination square, but mainly where I need the sliding blade facility. It's square, now, but took a bit of fiddling to fine-tune it to be so (it's no Starret, but wasn't a nasty cheapie, at the time, either!).

Cheers,

I haven't used another square since I got my CC 6" and I use it every time i'm setting out a job or setting up a tool to be 90°.
Although it's recalibratable I haven't had to adjust it and I check it against the CNC cut square occasionally. But I do tend to look after it a bit better than the old Stanley square.
My CC marking out tools are stored in a cupboard beside the bench but I use them so often I am considering adding a draw to the bench so they are close at hand.

what brand is that combination square Ian, the colour (shade of blue) of it looks like something rabone chestermine (spelling) that i have though i think there is a PEC brand from the USA that use that colour as well (prob a few other as well). to my amazement i noticed just the other day the robone chestermines arnt in production any more, dam! i was going to buy a new one, (who killed that company while i wasnt looking ) ...nothing wrong with starretts (i got them too) but those old pommy tools did a good job by me, never missed a beat, everything from the joiner and cabinetmakers shop to being thrown off the roof top to a soft landing in the dirt , over decades i reckon it deserves a kind mention for time served


(btw why do we call our planet, 'earth', shouldn't it be called the planet dirt)


i have zero against modern nice brass squares, except value for money is out the window imo (to get the job done), for most people (though crown tools sell adjustable squares, same design as CC for very small dollars in comparison, only four inch though, maybe not brass but steel, i cant remember, steel is prob better imo),..the adjustable design has been around since jesus, dont confuse that with not admiring an aussie for supplying a very nice tool for the market, my purely practical reasons is for the budget minded), i have to disagree about it being self lubricating (to any noticeable, useful effect, obviously in mechanics brass and bronze constantly in motion together is known to have friction benefits but i'm not sure u ever notice it running along the edge of of square for a second) and if there is the down side is its softer metal which takes hits from, well about anything, and marking knifes, though using a (good) marking knife, correctly, shouldn't have the problem (until you you dont) but its not unknown for some people to dig in to the brass


cheers
chippy

Chips, I can't remember what brand my combo square is, & I've had it so long, any decals have well & truly worn off. It's not stamped with a maker's name, if that's any sort of clue. I have a vague notion it might even be of Japanese manufaacture, but that could be way off. It is a decently solid thing, but was a smidgin out of whack because of some small dags on one side of the little ridge inside the stock that bears against the edge of the blade. I was at a loss as to what to do this with, until I noticed that an auger bit file fitted the slot - the type that has cutting edges on the sides at one end, & the faces on the other, so I was able to (very carefully! ) remove the rough patch a swipe at a time until the blade sat dead square. It has remained accurate since then, though I don't use it daily - the 6" CC is just so much more convenient for most jobs I do.

Originally Posted by ch!ppy

....its not unknown for some people to dig in to the brass....

Tell me about it! It was my own fault - doing something I knew wasn't sensible, but in a hurry, & too lazy & stupid to walk a few paces & get a more appropriate tool. That's why I said somewhere above that it's not too hard to restore the edge if disaster should strike....... I take the point that the self-lubricating effect is minor, and not of labour-saving proportions. I was just trying to make the point tht it does help slow the wear, and does help prevent accidents (unless you are willfully careless, as I was!), so it's not as dumb a choice for blades as I first thought.

I don't think Clenton or anone elsse makes any claims that his adjustaable mechanism is novel, it has certainly been around for a long time, & I saw the principle used in other applications long before I set eyes on one of his squares. But ya gotta admit it's one of those beautifully simple solutions to a simple problem.

Go easy on us folks who like their woodworking gear a little fancier - I noticed a hint of a confession somewhere, that you are not altogether immune from the disease yourself. Why we would like workaday tools to be aesthetically pleasing is strange enough, but it has a very long history, judging from some of the stuff archeologists have dug up, and the brass and ebony you see in old tool catalogues. Whatever the reasons, it does actually have a practical value, I reckon. Note that NCArcher says he takes care of his CC square. He's far from alone, I think we ALL take a bit more care of the tools we value, whether it's for their appearance or because they are just tools that we find exceptionally good for the job they do. That can't be a bad thing, as long as they don't get too precious and we are afraid to use them properly....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Chips, I can't remember what brand my combo square is, & I've had it so long, any decals have well & truly worn off. It's not stamped with a maker's name, if that's any sort of clue. ...

howdy Ian,
the rabone chestermines have their name on the blade, in miniature writing in the centre of the blade, between two lines, its very easy to miss, they are very robust ,might be the first square i ever bought when i was a teenager, its been everywhere, been knocked about in tool boxes and trailers, dropped into the dirt, on concrete you name it, hasn't needed adjusting back to square in all that time, quite amazing really, maybe some luck involved.

Originally Posted by IanW

Tell me about it! It was my own fault - doing something I knew wasn't sensible, but in a hurry, & too lazy & stupid to walk a few paces & get a more appropriate tool. That's why I said somewhere above that it's not too hard to restore the edge if disaster should strike....... I take the point that the self-lubricating effect is minor, and not of labour-saving proportions. I was just trying to make the point tht it does help slow the wear, and does help prevent accidents (unless you are willfully careless, as I was!), so it's not as dumb a choice for blades as I first thought.

I don't think Clenton or anone elsse makes any claims that his adjustaable mechanism is novel, it has certainly been around for a long time, & I saw the principle used in other applications long before I set eyes on one of his squares. But ya gotta admit it's one of those beautifully simple solutions to a simple problem.

Go easy on us folks who like their woodworking gear a little fancier - I noticed a hint of a confession somewhere, that you are not altogether immune from the disease yourself. Why we would like workaday tools to be aesthetically pleasing is strange enough, but it has a very long history, judging from some of the stuff archeologists have dug up, and the brass and ebony you see in old tool catalogues. Whatever the reasons, it does actually have a practical value, I reckon. Note that NCArcher says he takes care of his CC square. He's far from alone, I think we ALL take a bit more care of the tools we value, whether it's for their appearance or because they are just tools that we find exceptionally good for the job they do. That can't be a bad thing, as long as they don't get too precious and we are afraid to use them properly....

Cheers,

really, i dont want to sound like i'm having a go at any people here using or buying the extra nice looking tools (though i'm sure it looks that way, i'm not sure how to avoid sounding like i am), i would give the same criticism if i owned one too, and some tools i've have owned over the years i have had much to say about them to the sellers, manufactures and other buyers, in some cases the manufactures appreciate it, without the feedback things dont change and things dont improve.

your right Ian, i'm not immune to being drawn to pretty tools but they have to be functional too, somewhat practical as well. the old ebony and brass squares were about function as much as anything, they just ended up looking pretty which was secondary..ebony is hard (as we all know of course, i'm not telling people how to suck eggs) but it was commonly used for tools(i have a few old ebony tools), handles and part components of tools, boxwood and rosewood also, nowadays they are reserved only for the very exotic expensive things (RS still does chisels with boxwood though), when you can obtain it, which for regular production for most people isnt that easy, with the ebony and brass squares the brass was added as a wear strip (even ebony still wears) often only to the inside edge of the handle but sometimes all the way around, if you have the old ones with no brass to the outside/bottom edge the ebony has worn, but is very comfortable in the hand, but they dont work well using as an internal square, the ones with brass all the way around not as comfy but had that extra function, they had brass to hold the pins in that hold the handle to blade and it made sense to make into a nice shape while their doing it, so they made them into diamond shapes or fluer de lis or whatever, they didnt have the range of steels we do today for tools so no hardened chromed steel or stainless etc, but in 99.9 % they used steel for the blade, not brass! its not practical to use a softer metal for the blade if your running a harder metal against it (marking knifes). on many (i'm not saying all) of the old ebony and brass squares they had graduation marks too, nowadays they are often unreadable or worn away or rusted but the function was there, even old stanley and disston pre-war often had graduations on them, all those old squares of course only have inches and without having them in the hand you cant tell how actuate they are, besides the blades are often pitted which detracts from looks and function

as i have read through the forum the great percentage of the time i see the CC & CV squares recommended and described as the best you can get, but, honestly, imo they are just not, a cheap $30-$50 square is far more functional, which makes them better. indeed i like pretty tools too, but without function and practical usability their use is limited, the CC is best only used with a pencil for marking, the CV doesn't adjust and has no graduations either..it probably isnt a stretch to say that they are the most expensive woodworking squares on earth, by a big margin, perhaps their are other, i havnt heard of them is all. i have read around the net that people buying bridgecitytools offerings cop a fair bit of flak, usually because they are considered way too expensive and blingy etc, but if you compare the square they sold for while (they only do short runs of tools, i have no idea why, i have nothing to do with them or know them in any way either) was just $129 (cheaper if a member)!! it had all the features (including the handle rest and adjustability) of both the CC & CV square plus it had graduations on both edges of the blade, and at about 1/3 the price! some folk here know the guys CC & CV and know them to be nice guys, in no way am i picking on them personally, i'm certain they are great guys, i'm just criticising the squares, if the CC had hardened steel edges with graduations, attached to the brass (i dont know how its done, metal work isnt my thing) then it would be great and if the CV, instead of a brand logo and signature etched/laser'd across the length of the blade, which frankly detracts from the good looks , the one brand logo on the handle is enough surely, if it had graduations instead it might be about the best in looks and function, the handle rests are a very handy addition, there are one or two other little things i would include to make 'my' perfect square. but i only comment to present the other side to people that are considering new tools , perhaps they want the best, and in the very slight chance those manufactures of squares decide the feedback is worthwhile and they improve their squares, i dont think it helps to always say how wonderful they are when the reality is they are a long way from being as functional as pre-war or the old ebony, brass and steel designs. also because some guys on here make their own squares (tools), they could buy one of the cheap ones with graduations, hardened chrome etc, ditch the handle and work from there, i'd probably even buy one if it had function and good looks, so make two

and fwiw i dont think all their tools have problems either, CV bevel i really like, except the gob smacking price (not saying its not worth it but it is huge) , very similar from BCT was $89, but the blade of the VC i like and the overall weight is nice, I've been tempted to get one, only thing is in joinery (workshop) i dont find lots of use for a bevel, i find a bevel of more use in renovation and cottage work, its not a case of not looking after your tools but in that sort of work the bevel gets carried around in your nail bag, so its inevitable to get scratched about, its silly to treat it like a new born baby, you would never get any work done carrying each tool backwards and forwards, but they do work well, i wouldnt mind one, until then i use the regular common bevels, like marpels etc and the old aussie Silex or Stanley that lock off at the bottom the same as the CV (which is a very good mechanism), they have good weight to them too and work well, blades not quite as thick as the CV but do the job, pick em up at trash and treasure for $5-$10 i've seen

the CC marking and mortise gauges i really like their design, i wouldn't mind trying one, one day. i'd have to try first but they look a great design maybe in the top three of new ones available to my eye, i wouldn't be surprised if after using it i thought is was the best, maybe...



cheers
chippy

That knurled knob on the BCT bevel looks a bit painful ... ?

I like the Silex.

Paul

Originally Posted by ch!ppy

...though crown tools sell adjustable squares, same design as CC

From what I recall the fellow from Crown was very impressed when he saw Colen's design for the adjustable squares, many years ago. He even asked Colen if he had a patent on it. Colen called his bluff but 17 years or so later they made some squares along the same design.
Imitation is a form of flattery. )
I got the story directly from Colen a few years ago not long after the Crown squares of that type came on to the market.
Hey...I admit it, I like using the bling tools.
I am a huge fan of CV, CC, H&S, HNT Gordon tools but at the end of the day they are just tools that need to be used. I'd love to be able to have a pretty set that is just for show...but that would just be a waste. ImageUploadedByTapatalk1349137886.153942.jpg

From what I recall the fellow from Crown was very impressed when he saw Colen's design for the adjustable squares, many years ago. He even asked Colen if he had a patent on it. Colen called his bluff but 17 years or so later they made some squares along the same design.

For a number of years I happily used the Crown 4" adjustable square. It held its setting and was reliable. My only complaint - and this only came years later when I had used others of the same size - was that the blade was quite wide for my taste. I prefer the slim blade of the Vesper 4". I had the same issue with an 8" CC, which was quite different in this aspect of design to the 9" CC I currently use. Just a personal preference, no doubt someone else will see it the other way.

The Crown looked like a mini CC. Indeed, I sold both together to a member on this forum some months ago. They looked like a matching set.



Regards from Perth

Derek

I think I probably own and use one of nearly every marking out tool mentioned in this thread, except Bridge City. However, there is one that has not featured, and I use it constantly: the Veritas sliding square. I find that having two wide edges at 90 degrees is very useful, and the register edge sits very firmly at the edge of my work with no tendency to twist as I move my pencil/knife along. I also occasionally use a Stanley Oddjob (Garrett Wade copy), which sometimes fits where a larger square will not go.

the Veritas sliding square.

Agreed. I have the one that this is based upon, a 6" Starrett double square.

If you keep a close eye out on the US eBay, it is possible to pick up Starretts fairly cheaply. I also have 300mm and 12" adjustable squares, along with a 4" version. They all are very accurate and all get used.

My "artistic" display



Regards from Perth

Derek

Wow, some beautiful tools in this thread.

For someone (like me) who wants to make a move into some good quality measuring/marking tools, where should I start? I am not interested in a cheap set, just a set of quality tools to improve my setout and layout. But I don't really want any imperial markings on a rule - metric or bust.

Chris Vepser has a joinery kit for $660 that includes a 7" square, matching sliding bevel, a double/combination square and a marking knife.

For the same cost, you could get a Colin Clenton 6" square ($165) and a marking guage ($198), but there is no logical rule to match?

Pehraps something from Woodpeckers (see PWS one of our sponsors)?

Trav

Originally Posted by Trav

....For someone (like me) who wants to make a move into some good quality measuring/marking tools, where should I start? ......

Trav, my answer to you would be the same as any 'what do I start with?' question. Start with what you really need, and add to that as the need arises. What do you need to mark out? There are a few essentials, such as a reliable square, a knife, a sliding bevel (possibly not esential for everyone), an accurate rule and a marking gauge or two (one cutting & one point) and a pair of dividers. Add something to get accurate angles from & there would be few layout problems you couldn't solve withthat lot. Most of us have way too many layout tools - some of it is for convenience, like having several marking gauges, but mostly I suspect, it's because we can't resist the combination of brass & nice wood or the delight of a piece of over-precise engineering......

Cheers,

+1 to What Ian said above.

Originally Posted by ch!ppy

Go easy on us folks who like their woodworking gear a little fancier - I noticed a hint of a confession somewhere, that you are not altogether immune from the disease yourself. Why we would like workaday tools to be aesthetically pleasing is strange enough, but it has a very long history, judging from some of the stuff archeologists have dug up, and the brass and ebony you see in old tool catalogues. Whatever the reasons, it does actually have a practical value, I reckon.

I see 2 factors at play.

denser exotic hardwoods wear better and tend to be a bit more stable than less dense commodity hardwoods. bluing helps keep rust at bay. knurling and complex shaping of handles improves grip. brass doesn't rust. what may seem like decorative extravagance often has root in very real practicalities.

anything you keep at hand and touch repeatedly through the day is going to have a lot of influence in how you view yourself and your work. if your tools are all ugly, ill-formed, uncomfortable to hold and rusty you will likely have a harder time doing good work and enjoying the process.

while having a pretty tool at the bench is no guarantee of producing pretty work, it's a step in the right direction.

Bridger