Thread: Melbourne Tool Company

Originally Posted by jack620

You wrote-off the whole tool as cheap and nasty because it has a HSS blade?

Yes, I did!

If I told you the plane blade was made of plastic, wouldn't you?

My reasoning is, if the cutting blade is nasty, does it really matter if everything else is fine?

Originally Posted by IanW

dschumy, could you expand a bit on why you have such a dislike of HSS? I have several HSS blades, & I don't know what the alloy is for a couple (there are quite a few HSSs!), but a couple I know to be M2 or at least that's what the tool steel blank I made them from is supposed to be. All take & hold a keen edge, not quite to the standard of more sexy alloys like PMV-11, but they hang on in abrasive woods better than O1 or 1084 & are entirely satisfactory for my purposes. Both the HSS & PM blades take a bit more effort to sharpen than the plainer HCS blades I have, but I can live with that.

I don't think you can make many assertions about M2 or any tool steel without specifying the temper of the blade you are comparing - M2 can be tempered to anywhere between ~57 to 63 Rc, and any of those hardness levels may be suitable for specific purposes & quite unsuitable for others. The stuff I bought as M2 is intended for metal cutting & would be at the higher end of hardness I expect, which should also make it a bit more brittle, but as far as I can tell, chipping has not been a problem. I have spent years pursuing the hardest steels I could find, for plane blades - I don't enjoy sharpening for its own sake & would much rather be getting on with the job. However, as with so much else in life there are pros & cons with any of the steels used for blades & I've come to accept there is no perfect blade material & it's unlikely there ever will be one that satisfies all requirements for all woodworkers.

For working with 'decent' woods, I'm more than happy with my Hock blades. They are pretty basic, O1 steel, but Hock manage to harden & temper O1 to a sweet spot that is a good compromise between toughness & ease of sharpening, I like that they last a good while, but are easily touched up for the fine work at the end. However, if I'm working with bull-oak or gidgee, I really appreciate the staying power of my PM-V11 or HSS blades....

Horses for courses...

I do not dislike M2 HSS steel or any equivalents - it's just inappropriate use that's the problem. High speed steels have their place and were designed for modern engineered materials and power tools essentially - especially metal. It's ability to resist high heat applications and withstand higher rates of wear make it useful in today's world. When machines started to work their way into industry last century, the traditional tool steels were found wanting - they couldn't handle high heat applications and were destroyed very quickly. As an example: try sharpening 01 tool steel on a high speed grinder without frequent use of water; even with water, good luck! In reverse, traditional steels were inappropriate for the coming changes that exist today - it works both ways ironically and as you stated there's "no perfect blade" material. HSS tool steels did exist in the 19th century however (although better refinements didn't happen until much later), but they too were found wanting in that earlier era. Many wood products now, are no longer pure wood; they're engineered petro-chemical glue, holding sawdust together: it's a lot more abrasive than a log consequently and suitable for HSS. That steel's purpose however, does not work effectively with handheld plane blades, that are manually powered by humans, in a low heat situation, which consequently produces poorer quality results in real wood. It will also destroy your sharpening gear at an exponential rate, because as stated, HSS resists wear. HSS is a cheaply massed produced material, designed for a modern widespread purpose, which briefly can be described as: 'get it done quickly, get it done dirty and don't care if lasts 10 years or centuries' - which it probably won't for either duration. HSS blades micro-shatter and the higher you push that hardness, the more problems you'll have that cannot be eyeballed. Ultimately the surface you create with such a blade will not be as consistent (but probably bearable), because the blade that created it was not consistent to begin with. HSS blades are also not as sharp, and are much harder to reliably restore to a decent level and it will never be as sharp as blades used centuries ago. Tearout will occur more often as well, especially when the going gets tough. That's why they never used it back then, among other reasons and they had the opportunity to - they never transitioned until the use of power tools and only because of power tools. HSS will micro-shatter on high grit stones that you can't visually observe it happening. Endgrain softwoods will be a particular disaster with HSS blades, because they're hard to get sharp. HSS for me, is a surgeon using a chainsaw, when he'll do a much better job using a scalpel.

In regard to PMV-11; it's a complete fraud and a crazy con job so many have fallen into. Take a step back and think about how crazy the fiction is:

Freezing objects basically keeps them from changing as quickly; it places objects in stasis. Food for example, is frozen to stop it from going off, where items remain edible for a great deal longer and that's just moderate freezing. The lower the freezing temperature, the longer the objects will stay the same. Cryogenic freezing doesn't do the complete opposite and dramatically change the composition of metal such that it becomes permanently harder. Sure, metal does become more conductive, harder and brittle while cold, but that is because the kinetic energy (i.e the heat) within the molecules has been removed - there is less energy available to pull the bonds between them apart - hence stasis (i.e nothing happens). Once the metal has thawed, it returns to it's original values in regard to said properties. There is no scientific evidence to support cryogenic tool steel from becoming permanently harder as a result of being frozen; it's dodgy advertising where they've tried to dupe us and it's worked on so many. Advertising rubbish doesn't just include names like the "Melbourne Tool Company", but if one can't see the trend with advertising, then one is totally screwed. So go ahead and buy your HSS plane blades and put them in a freezer as well; crying is free with every purchase (once you realize it), but why you're crying, is unfortunately very costly! That said, perhaps there is a place for such a blade in a rough tool like a scrub plane, but even then I don't want to wear out my sharpening gear; it's very expensive!

If you really want to do good work, buy the right tool steel for your plane blade and if you're using it on exotic woods, you'll be sharpening it more, sure, but the good news is, it doesn't take that long with a slightly softer material that can be worked, which is sharper and reliable. Also consider this: even when sharpening is more frequent, the results you create with the right blade are forever. Further, it's not about "sharpening for it's own sake" and quite frankly what's wrong with that anyway? If you don't like sharpening, I'd get a new hobby/career, because unlike what you state, sharpening is part of the job; seriously!

Addendum: I did note your mention of 01 tool steel as "pretty basic". Maybe it is indeed "pretty basic", but if so, the HSS category should be considered similarly; each steel formula is designed for a particular purpose and each has it's own drawbacks. The latter might be predominant in an earlier era (with good reason), but do not mistake the current era as somehow superior to it (as you have inadvertently implied). As stated, they had access to HSS back then too (by a different name) and didn't use it. I think today, our reliance on machines, engineered wood and attitudes (i.e. where speed of completion takes priority over quality and durability) means relevant tradesmen in the wood industry do not hold a candle to the skills of those centuries ago. They don't have real skills like our forefathers did; they often don't even understand wood movement, much less carve immaculate works of art, on joinery that lasts many centuries and will continue to last. I suspect if all machines were disabled tomorrow, we'd have a lot of completely useless woodworkers. Actually I don't suspect; we just would. What is more advanced today is our machines (and those who build them), but don't confuse that for woodworkers using them. They didn't use HSS for a reason back then and they are the real masters of wood, not us. I think we've lost our way and we are the "pretty basic" ones actually. That ultimately is the origin of why I don't like using HSS blades in planes - simply because they didn't and since then I've discovered why. For the most part, I haven't disagreed with what you've written; I've just put it in a more blunt context.

Originally Posted by dschumy

If I told you the plane blade was made of plastic, wouldn't you?

What the ....?

Originally Posted by dschumy

Once the metal has thawed, it returns to it's original values in regard to said properties. There is no scientific evidence to support cryogenic tool steel from becoming permanently harder as a result of being frozen;

I have absolutely no knowledge of various steels in hand tool usage, but I've been following this thread as I am starting with hand tools and saw the same email.

However what you said about Cryo treatment is absolutely false. There are many studies about the effects of Cryo hardening on metals and the value of it as it is very frequently applied in automotive industry.

Addy


Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

Yes, dschumy, as addyau said, cryogenic treatments of certain steels certainly does alter their physical properties permanently. If you do a quick search you can find plenty of scholarly articles in peer-reviewed journals attesting to the fact. Here's a quote from the summary of one: ".....by applying the subzero treatments, the retained austenite was transformed to martensite. As the temperature was decreased more retained austenite was transformed to martensite and it also led to smaller and more uniform martensite laths distributed in the microstructure. The deep cryogenic treatment also resulted in precipitation of more uniform and very fine carbide particles. The microstructural modification resulted in a significant improvement on the mechanical properties of the H13 tool steel."

In simple terms, it pushes the normal hardening process a little further.

Second, I'm not sure PM-V11 is cryogenically treated - it may be but it's not mentioned in Lee Valley's blurb when they introduced it, & I would've thought they'd make an issue of it if it were. As I understand it, PM-V11 gets its superior properties from the "powdered-metal" manufacturing method, which ensures the ingredients are very finely dispersed & very uniform in the finished alloy. However it's treated, the blades are pretty damn good. I get the impression from what you wrote that you haven't used any, because I can assure you it doesn't "destroy" normal sharpening media. True, it's painfully slow on typical oilstones, either manufactured or 'natural', but isn't so bad on diamond media or waterstones. I find it a bit easier to sharpen well than A2 steel (which is not a HSS), but certainly takes more effort than O1. I haven't examined the edge under a microscope, but another regular contributor (D.W.) has & iirc, you can easily get an edge on it that is as fine as the older steels can achieve.

I agree wholeheartedly that it's all too easy to get tied up in tool tomfoolery & lose sight of the goals but equally, I wouldn't reject new materials out of hand simply because older generations got along without them (do you ride a horse or drive a car?). Depending on the types of woods you regularly plane, even the old Stanley & Record blades that some pundits love to pan can give perfectly satisfactory results. But to despise something simply because it wasn't used 200 years ago doesn't make a lot of sense in my book. I would never claim "craftsman" status, but I think I'm semi-competent in a few areas, and try to remain receptive to methods & materials that might help me get the results I'm striving for. I'm a hobbyist & time isn't an issue in costing jobs but but I still prefer to work as efficiently as I can - I get more done in the time available, and I'm acutely conscious of the fact I'm running out of that at an alarming rate...

Cheers,

I won't add anything to the blade discussion. But I had a read through their website and find it very underwhelming. The two planes they offer do look the same as all the other LA planes out there. They say they are designed in Melbourne together with Melbourne woodworkers. But there are no specifics to what they do differently. For now it looks like they are just reversed engineered and maybe some improvents here ore there. But no one knows, because they do not say it.

I would wish they would have come up with something new, which none of the others have. The website is just very general marketing blurbs.

Will be interesting to see if someone has a first hand experience with the tool.

Sent from my SM-G781B using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Cklett

But there are no specifics to what they do differently. For now it looks like they are just reversed engineered and maybe some improvents here ore there. But no one knows, because they do not say it.

Unfortunately most marketing hype is that way - full of meaningless babble that sounds impressive. Phrases like "removes up to 100% of..." now I would love to see it remove 120%.

As consumers and potential customers I believe we deserve and must insist on being given access to critical specifications and information that supports the manufacturers, importers, or re/sellers claims.

So who are the Melbourne designers and wood workers? I'm a Townsville designer and wood worker but does that give me any credibility or perhaps more credibility than say a Melbournian?????

I revisited this yesterday and by doing a side-by-side photo comparison between MTC and Luban/Juuma/WoodRiver (here after will be referred to as QS for Quengshang) LAJ's I can see that they are using a different base casting. The obvious difference is in the shape of the cheeks but there are a couple of other subtle differences too.

Handles are different amongst all the QS sub-brands so no big discovery there; however the MTC is significantly different in shape to all the others. To me it looks like they're leaning more towards the Veritas design rather than the comfortable, practical and immensely less ugly Stanley shape. The front knob resembles the Stanley pre-1930 (ish) "low" knobs and the throat adjusting lever is a slightly different stamping; it doesn't have the same 'lift" at the front and has more rounded ends.

Blades look to be the same shape and are likely totally compatible across all brands. There are differences in materials; MTC uses M2 HSS, QS & Juuma just state "high carbon steel" and WoodRiver use 65mn spring steel. Luban quote T10 but the (google!) jury appears to be out as to whether this is a high carbon or high speed steel....


So.... despite my initial assumption that MTC was simply another QS sub-brand it may well be that they are an independent company, although still manufactured in China. Really only the blades (and possibly the Norris-style adjuster) appear to be same and those could have come out of the same sub-contracted factory. Still not convinced it's design is specifically 'Strine though...

If anyone buys one I might be persuaded to loan out my Luban LAJ so a side-by-side comparison can be made; or if someone is willing to loan me their MTC LAJ I'll do it.

Originally Posted by Chief Tiff

...... it looks like they're leaning more towards the Veritas design rather than the comfortable, practical and immensely less ugly Stanley shape. The front knob resembles the Stanley pre-1930 (ish) "low" knobs .....

Chief, there are some (many, if you believe Lee Valley) as LIKE those 'orrible upright handles! The observation was made a very long time ago that many of the buyers of their planes especially in the early days, were coming to "hand" tools after some time working with powered tools. As a result, they tended to have higher benches, and they found the upright handles were more comfy to hold & easier to use than the forward-leaning style of the older bench planes. That is true enough, in my experience, as long as your planing sessions are short & well-spaced, but settle in for a long haul & you soon discover why the folks who use hand planes a lot go for lower benches and the Stanley style handles - you can get your whole body into the job, not just your arms.

I'm a great fan of the pre-1918 (or thereabouts) "low" knob, the "high" knob was a retrograde step, imo. But handles & knobs engender such individual preferences - I reckon Stanley did exceedingly well with the design of their earlier "tote"; it seems to suit all but a small minority - no mean feat when trying to satisfy a host of cranky, picky, woodworkers!

Cheers,

Originally Posted by dschumy

I do not dislike M2 HSS steel or any equivalents - it's just inappropriate use that's the problem. High speed steels have their place and were designed for modern engineered materials and power tools essentially - especially metal. It's ability to resist high heat applications and withstand higher rates of wear make it useful in today's world. When machines started to work their way into industry last century, the traditional tool steels were found wanting - they couldn't handle high heat applications and were destroyed very quickly. As an example: try sharpening 01 tool steel on a high speed grinder without frequent use of water; even with water, good luck! In reverse, traditional steels were inappropriate for the coming changes that exist today - it works both ways ironically and as you stated there's "no perfect blade" material. HSS tool steels did exist in the 19th century however (although better refinements didn't happen until much later), but they too were found wanting in that earlier era. Many wood products now, are no longer pure wood; they're engineered petro-chemical glue, holding sawdust together: it's a lot more abrasive than a log consequently and suitable for HSS. That steel's purpose however, does not work effectively with handheld plane blades, that are manually powered by humans, in a low heat situation, which consequently produces poorer quality results in real wood. It will also destroy your sharpening gear at an exponential rate, because as stated, HSS resists wear. HSS is a cheaply massed produced material, designed for a modern widespread purpose, which briefly can be described as: 'get it done quickly, get it done dirty and don't care if lasts 10 years or centuries' - which it probably won't for either duration. HSS blades micro-shatter and the higher you push that hardness, the more problems you'll have that cannot be eyeballed. Ultimately the surface you create with such a blade will not be as consistent (but probably bearable), because the blade that created it was not consistent to begin with. HSS blades are also not as sharp, and are much harder to reliably restore to a decent level and it will never be as sharp as blades used centuries ago. Tearout will occur more often as well, especially when the going gets tough. That's why they never used it back then, among other reasons and they had the opportunity to - they never transitioned until the use of power tools and only because of power tools. HSS will micro-shatter on high grit stones that you can't visually observe it happening. Endgrain softwoods will be a particular disaster with HSS blades, because they're hard to get sharp. HSS for me, is a surgeon using a chainsaw, when he'll do a much better job using a scalpel.

In regard to PMV-11; it's a complete fraud and a crazy con job so many have fallen into. Take a step back and think about how crazy the fiction is:

Freezing objects basically keeps them from changing as quickly; it places objects in stasis. Food for example, is frozen to stop it from going off, where items remain edible for a great deal longer and that's just moderate freezing. The lower the freezing temperature, the longer the objects will stay the same. Cryogenic freezing doesn't do the complete opposite and dramatically change the composition of metal such that it becomes permanently harder. Sure, metal does become more conductive, harder and brittle while cold, but that is because the kinetic energy (i.e the heat) within the molecules has been removed - there is less energy available to pull the bonds between them apart - hence stasis (i.e nothing happens). Once the metal has thawed, it returns to it's original values in regard to said properties. There is no scientific evidence to support cryogenic tool steel from becoming permanently harder as a result of being frozen; it's dodgy advertising where they've tried to dupe us and it's worked on so many. Advertising rubbish doesn't just include names like the "Melbourne Tool Company", but if one can't see the trend with advertising, then one is totally screwed. So go ahead and buy your HSS plane blades and put them in a freezer as well; crying is free with every purchase (once you realize it), but why you're crying, is unfortunately very costly! That said, perhaps there is a place for such a blade in a rough tool like a scrub plane, but even then I don't want to wear out my sharpening gear; it's very expensive!

If you really want to do good work, buy the right tool steel for your plane blade and if you're using it on exotic woods, you'll be sharpening it more, sure, but the good news is, it doesn't take that long with a slightly softer material that can be worked, which is sharper and reliable. Also consider this: even when sharpening is more frequent, the results you create with the right blade are forever. Further, it's not about "sharpening for it's own sake" and quite frankly what's wrong with that anyway? If you don't like sharpening, I'd get a new hobby/career, because unlike what you state, sharpening is part of the job; seriously!

Addendum: I did note your mention of 01 tool steel as "pretty basic". Maybe it is indeed "pretty basic", but if so, the HSS category should be considered similarly; each steel formula is designed for a particular purpose and each has it's own drawbacks. The latter might be predominant in an earlier era (with good reason), but do not mistake the current era as somehow superior to it (as you have inadvertently implied). As stated, they had access to HSS back then too (by a different name) and didn't use it. I think today, our reliance on machines, engineered wood and attitudes (i.e. where speed of completion takes priority over quality and durability) means relevant tradesmen in the wood industry do not hold a candle to the skills of those centuries ago. They don't have real skills like our forefathers did; they often don't even understand wood movement, much less carve immaculate works of art, on joinery that lasts many centuries and will continue to last. I suspect if all machines were disabled tomorrow, we'd have a lot of completely useless woodworkers. Actually I don't suspect; we just would. What is more advanced today is our machines (and those who build them), but don't confuse that for woodworkers using them. They didn't use HSS for a reason back then and they are the real masters of wood, not us. I think we've lost our way and we are the "pretty basic" ones actually. That ultimately is the origin of why I don't like using HSS blades in planes - simply because they didn't and since then I've discovered why. For the most part, I haven't disagreed with what you've written; I've just put it in a more blunt context.

I really do not know where you come up with all these opinions - for that it what they are ... your opinions. They have no factual basis, as far as I am aware.

Firstly, HSS is not one steel - there are a range of steels and compositions under this category. Some are better than others. Now you need to take up HSS as a plane steel with Terry Gordon (HNT Gordon planes) and tell him that he has got it all wrong. Also, go and tell all those turners with M2 lathe chisels that they are using the wrong chisels ... they it should be O1. I love O1 steel, but not when turning. Give me M2 and M4 any day. Oh, and one of my favourite smoother blades is a custom M2.

So PM-V11 is a con? I love to see you say this to Rob Lee, who is one of the most honest and above-board company leaders on this planet. To imagine that he would participate in a con is beyond reason. I was one of the testers of this steel for Lee Valley/Veritas. Testing was blind. Later, I did extensive personal testing against other steels. David Weaver, who is more knowledgeable about steels than I, and probably most, and we both came up with the same conclusion: PM-V11 is probably the best steel available today for Western chisels and plane blades. I am not suggesting that other steels are suddenly made null and void - even A2 can work perfectly well, as can CPM-3V and O1.

Cryogenic methods, typically for A2 steel? I do not have the metallurgical knowledge to explain this. It is a well-established method for reconstituting and aligning grain in steel, not for retaining composition, as you indicated. Best you talk to Thomas Lie-Nielson about this, and suggest he is conning the world. Best of luck

Here is a summation of cryo: "By carefully cooling the tooling to-320° and then thoroughly retempering the metal, nearly all of the austenite is transformed into martensite .Bryson says it’s proven to be a 99.9-percent transformation or more" Link: cryo.pdf

Regards from Perth

Derek

The cryogenic quenching process has been around for quite a while and very well researched, apparently. See the article beloe for a good explanation of what the process does. In summary, the purpose of the process is to further the transformation of the steel into the hardened structure that the quenching in water or oil does. Stopping the quenching at room temperature leaves some steel untransformed. It's also noteworthy that cooling in a freezer or using dry ice has a noticeable effect in the final hardness. So, it's not like you _have_ to use liquid nitrogen to achieve a bit extra hardness.

Dry Ice vs Liquid Nitrogen vs Freezer - How Cold Do You Need for Cryo? - Knife Steel Nerds

I have been following this thread and have an initial position on the new MTC brand coming from some scepticism, but time will tell as credible reviews start to appear. Perhaps tellingly, but without yet drawing conclusion, there is seemingly little to differentiate it from existing offerings in the market.

Regarding the cryogenic treatment of steels, my expertise is in ferrous materials as a Metallurgist, so perhaps I can contribute. There is no debate within academia/materials engineering on its value as a process to induce certain favourable properties. With reference to a comment earlier in the thread, it is not a case of just sticking steel in the freezer. For those interested, and as much as i cringe to cite it, the wiki page on cryogenic hardening gives a good summary.

Thanks for your input Chris, & welcome to this corner - now we have someone to refer our metal questions to - great!

I will confess to being skeptical about cryogenic treatment of steel when I first saw it mentioned 20 yrs or so ago, but I've read enough simplified explanations of the effects since to convince me it can most certainly alter properties of steels, though as you implied, it's not just a matter of getting a thermos full of liquid nitrogen & dipping your plane blades in it.

Wrt the MTC planes, it is indeed wise to wait & hear what credible reviewers have to say before drawing any conclusions on their worth. However, I will admit again to some skepticism - when ad copy gushes about "design" of a tool without telling us what is actually different from its many similar-looking brethren, my BS detector flips to full-on mode...

The MTC planes may well turn out to be very good; we know the big factory up north is perfectly capable of producing high-quality stuff if required (& appropriately remunerated!). With any plane, but particularly low-angle jobs, I think quality comes from attention to detail and ensuring fit & finish are up to par. Planes have been around for a year or two now, and their essential features have been pretty thoroughly worked out, so I reckon there is little room for further "design" other than changing superficial appearance.

Anyway, that's my 2c....
Cheers,
Ian

I see The Wood Knight has done a review on one of their planes Melbourne Tool Company Block Plane Review - YouTube

Cheers Andrew