Thread: Moulding planes and their use?

Same question...just watching with interest.

Here's a few points from an enthusiast and confirmed non-expert ...

First this might give you some hope ...

Shop made grooving planes - Fine Woodworking

http://bcove.me/7i5pxom0


http://www.lie-nielsen.com.au/pdf/FWWGroovingPlanes.pdf

Well that's a great start there is even a DVD on the LN website how to do.
Making Traditional Side Escapement Planes DVD

By Larry Williams

Something has come to mind I recently ordered from Lee Valley the small plow plane complete kit thats not available in Oz as of yet don't why but it's their loss anyway this new attachment is the tongue and groove, how much better it is than the LN version I guess I will not know till I try out both but now I'll have one tool able to do two jobs. What I was thinking if it will be at all possible to also convert this plane into a moulding plane as well. If not I have decided to make my own, blades are relatively inexpensive from LN and it doesn't look really that hard, well it maybe in the beginning like anything but with more practice it should get easier.

What's prompted me to make my own is the uncertainty of the ones available on ebay and some antique stores, I went to a couple today and only one had a small collection of them with some other really rusted even ceased up hand tools off various kinds asking pretty big money for it. So making them is definitely the answer for me and if I come across any that are decent and for the right price then yes I will be buy it. Who knows maybe I'll get that good at it I'll make them to sell.

I was interrupted by work - and my eyes are hanging out - so, if I make less sense than normal ...

well ... that would be something.

I understand that the side-bead is the most common type of moulding plane.
You can find sets of them - from the same maker even - on ebay at good prices.

I had picked up some here and there. Had some more in a toolbox from (I assume) a deceased estate that I inadvertently reassembled via ebay. And I had the idea of moulding planes as tired, somewhat scruffy tools.

It wasn't until I bought a set of 8 or so side-beads from the UK at a knockout price that I realised that they could be in outstanding condition. Smooth, sharp; rich patina. Clear makers marks. Just beautiful.

Inspired by that I dug out the mp's I had accumulated and brought them all together - and found that most of them were in pretty amazing condition. I don't know why I hadn't seen it before. Some are from 1780-1820, which I find amazing.

Anyway my point is that good ones are very much out there - and you can pay $5 or $50 depending on who is selling.

It is good for you to get out and see some, because you (ok I) need to see and feel to start to appreciate what I might do with them - what they might do for me.

I think I would suggest you freehand sharpen some normal chisels and then some simple carving gouges before you tackle a mp iron. Once you get that far you can probably have a go at anything. I tried to use them when I didn't know squat ... you need to know what sharp is to get them humming.

I can't tell you about x-grain performance 'cos I don'y know enough myself ... but do you know what a scratch-stock is? The difference would be in the angle of the blade to the work primarily.

Read about them - Chris Schwarz and Peter Follansbee and Adam Cherubini at least have discussed them.

The LN? blank irons are very thick I think, compared to the vintage ones I have.

and don't forget that stanley multi-planes can also do hollows and rounds and tongue and groove and ... (But don't have the style of the mps - IMHO)

Cheers,
Paul.

Very good points you've made I'm currently trying to gather as much information as I can before I tackle this venture. I'm also looking at purchasing the above video from LN of course they always have to be so pricy but education is never cheap and it lasts a life time.

Maybe this viideo will give me a good understanding of the making process or at the very least point me in the right direction to where I can atleast start and learn from the obvious many mistakes I will make. That's the beauty of self teaching that you cannot learn in a classroom situation to where your basically spoon fed, as with many applications I'm self taught and I prefer it that way because I actually see first hand and understand the mechanics behind of what went wrong, why it happened and what the results are of such mistakes. I have many things to learn in woodworking and no matter how long you've done it is a life long learning process one which I hope to pass on later in years to come to others.

Have you seen the Mike Dunbar book "Restoring Tuning and Using Classic Woodworking Tools"? This is an excellent book that covers cleaning up old woodies and goes into a great deal of detail on profiles and how to shape and sharpen moulding plane blades properly. Notably it covers the problem of old woodies shrinking over time and the consequent mismatch that occurs then between the sole and original cutter and why you may need to reshape an original blade in otherwise good condition just to get an old plane working sweetly again.

I just googled it and was surprised to see the new price is now around $100 and used ones go around $50.

I thought I was mad and I probably am. But it never even crossed my mind to get rid of my routers (3) in favour of moulding planes. As much as I like hand tools, restoring planes and hand cutting joinery it seems I have a long way to go before the disease takes full effect.

Lol the "disease" they call it switching to the dark side but I call it liberating oneself.

thanks Fuzzie I will look into that book, last night I ordered that video from LN I held out on the sharpening one in case this video covers it. A book will always be a better source of information than any video but the video provides a practical visual side that sometimes the authors can't get across to the reader. When I see the actual process of it being made I will better understand the book.

just toying with ideas I still can't shake the idea off converting that small plough plane into a combination moulding plane. Would it be possible to add a moulding under the plane but without the plane in my hands I'm only speculating.

Thats a good book Fuzzie mentioned.

End grain , what does not struggle with end grain? maybe a big old spindle moulder with razor sharp cutters ,and even with that you still have to think and adjust you technique for the end grain passes. A router with a good sharp bit gives clean results for the sizes it can do, but like you say , you have to be careful. The moulding plane is the same , you would need to adjust it's use to what you were trying to do, I would be looking at removing as much material as I could with other tools and finishing with the moulding plane .

If you look through an Antique shop at all the furniture you see little end grain mouldings compared to the with the grain mouldings

A good thing to ponder as well, when looking at the rise and fall of the moulding plane is the timbers that they were designed to be used on. In general ,it gets as hard as Oak and Elm and from then on it gets softer, Mahogany, Black wood, Walnut , Cherry, Aussie Red Cedar and all the Pines. The hard timbers wear hard on the planes I have noticed when using them moulding Oak , “ if I’m not careful here I will damage the plane “
All my planes are made from Beech

I have made a few pieces of furniture where the planes and scratch stock did most of the moulding, but did create rebates with the table saw first in the old days this would be done with a Moving Fillister .

Where it really pays me to have them, is when someone comes in with a bookcase missing a cornice mould , the 3 to 4 inch OG made in red Cedar or Mahogany can be made perfectly taking waste out on the table saw first in rebates then across the blade to get the hollow , then it gets the round and hollow cleaned up with large size moulding planes on the bench.
Or when any moulding missing of an antique has to be made, the table saw and router get it close , the rounds and hollows finish it off , and it’s perfect because it’s not perfect like off a machine . just like the old days.

With the new constructions I do it mainly with a router and finish with moulding planes, if I need that look.

With side beads , it is some times quicker to mould say a set of shelf fronts with the plane than set up the router, same with small og’s
Applied cock beads for drawers I sometimes mould on the board with a 1/8 plane and then saw them off on the table saw.

In general, the smaller the mould the easier the job when it is a one off shape. Rounds and hollows can be better at larger shapes because you can get to the shape you need with lots of smaller bites , a 1 ½ or 2 “ og would be a lot easier to do with a few rebates and some R& H planes in a hard timber than a single big moulding plane .

I would be fine tuning a few old ones first before ditching the router or even making some section1

cheers Rob

Here is one I did about 18 years back, its a copy of an English open low dresser that I saw on a video a friend lent me , I had to pause it and draw what I could see.
The mouldings were all done with planes and scratch stock . the complex ones around the drawers and the panels on the end which cant be seen are the scratch stock ones , hard work doing those for sure .
All the rest done with rebates on the saw then rounds and hollows.
A great way to build special pieces. The whole piece is panel and frame construction , 3 panels in the back . morticed and tenoned and pegged using a little hide glue here and there so that most of the joins were loose , if you push from the side it creaks and moans like an old one should . old nails were used and rusted in with salt water ,all hand planed inside and out. given fake woodworm ,polished aged , set on fire etc etc . , restored . and my name fixed to the back.

I took it home and was never going to sell it. five years later I took it back to work while we painted the room , and I ended up selling it . and slightly regret it , I will do it again one day though and improve the bits I think I got wrong , I keep telling myself .

cheers Rob

oh my God that is beautiful I too would regret selling.
I hear what your saying but my router will not linger around for much longer. I love my hand tools love working with them I try and limit the use or better eliminate the use of any machinery. I'm working on perfecting my hand skills which will serve me far better than machines will. We have become far too reliant on machinery and as ghandi once said we'll end cursing up ourselves.

Originally Posted by auscab

Here is one I did about 18 years back, its a copy of an English open low dresser that I saw on a video a friend lent me , I had to pause it and draw what I could see.
The mouldings were all done with planes and scratch stock . the complex ones around the drawers and the panels on the end which cant be seen are the scratch stock ones , hard work doing those for sure .
All the rest done with rebates on the saw then rounds and hollows.
A great way to build special pieces. The whole piece is panel and frame construction , 3 panels in the back . morticed and tenoned and pegged using a little hide glue here and there so that most of the joins were loose , if you push from the side it creaks and moans like an old one should . old nails were used and rusted in with salt water ,all hand planed inside and out. given fake woodworm ,polished aged , set on fire etc etc . , restored . and my name fixed to the back.

I took it home and was never going to sell it. five years later I took it back to work while we painted the room , and I ended up selling it . and slightly regret it , I will do it again one day though and improve the bits I think I got wrong , I keep telling myself .

cheers Rob

Rob, once again very convincing patina and workmanship. I can't wait for you to do a tobacco sunburst on a guitar.

section 1,
One man's perspective on " hand work ". David Pye in " The Nature and Aesthetics of Design " classes work into the work of Risk and the work of Certainty.
A hand plane is only a hand powered machine with the shaving thickness a certainty. A 150mm angle grinder is a powered machine with no certainty of cut.
It would more skill to make a board straight, flat and an even thickness with an angle grinder than a hand plane. Personally I prefer the plane.

Originally Posted by section1

I want to replace my router with moulding planes and I have a couple of questions.

1. Will they plane across the grain without tear out, I know with the router if I don't pay attention to the grain's direction I will tear it out.
2. What do I look for in a moulding plane eg.type of wood it's made from, it's condition and so forth
3. How do you sharpen one is it difficult or simple.
4. If I cannot find the profiles I'm looking for can I make one using my own router if so what type of timber would suit it best.
5. Would I get away with using poplar.
6. Is it difficult making making them.

I would prefer to make them as I know this collection will extend to a library of them and I could make them to suit my type of work.

section1,
some good info coming out here, great!
I've seen plenty of home made moulding planes.
Some of the wood used...Aust Blackwood, Euro Beech, Silky Oak, Red Iron Bark ( Chinese Australian made 1850s), Kauri pine. Dry stable wood, and they usually have the growth rings parallel to the base, with the outside of the tree pointing down...if that makes sense??
Poplar is a wood I've got no experience with, Rob might???
As for making things, and how difficult is it...well I've seen one that Rob made, and he is less than happy with it...and you have seen what he can make...hehehe.
My advice is to spend $20 or $30 on a couple to see what makes them work, and what make them useless.
I have a handful of blades from old moulding planes, some of which you are welcome to have for a plane build. Grinding a blade, making a sole the right shape, getting the mortice right, and the wedge tightening in the right way...challenging work, but lots of fun, and good practice for further work.
Must go food and wine are calling....
More later
Regards,
Peter

Thanks Peter I appreciate the offer I think I will get me a couple and study them, I ordered the video from LN on how to make them there's also a sharpening one but maybe the one I ordered covers that part.

Rob's work is just outstanding its great to see that we have such great craftsman in Oz, I have spent a fortune on hand tools my only regret was buying some of my machinery, today I would not only have a little more space but a lot more in my pocket money I could of directed in getting a nice LN 5 1/2 jack plane, floats, blanks, scrub plane i mean when does the list ever end.
My wife freaked when she saw star track pull up with all these lovely boxes filled with my new toys my plan of getting her out of house for the day before the truck arrived didn't work and I got busted red handed.

it would be easier just to place an order and spend a couple of thou and have them built for me but there's the matter of a two year waiting list and the never ending purchases. I think making my own would be a better option, cheaper for one thing and using poplar just may prove to be a good timber to make them from. I think it's all about listening to others and experimentation, my friend Tony Konovaloff says whatever works for you is what you should stick to and he couldn't be more right. Its just a matter of diving into it and keep working at it till you find a method that works for you. But first I need to replenish what I've spent so if anyone needs an excellent compound saw I've got it up for sale in the market place.