Thread: Musings on combination squares and quality

When I started my apprenticeship (shortly after the discovery of fire and the wheel) I set out starry eyed to buy teh very best tools. I've still got most of my stahwille spanners. As the years rolled on I cottoned on that some tools needed to be top quality but some others can just be ok and will do fine. I bought 3/8 drive no name sockets, but made sure they were chrome vanadium not drop forged steel. I was working on F series ambulances then, but had my motorcycles at home (priorities). Some of my co workers literally laughed especially when they saw my 3/8 universal joint. I never broke a single socket and am still using that uni today. Its even still tight. I did invest in good quality ratchets though.

My CS isn't even pot metal, it's a plastic head and mild steel ruler. I understand it's limitations and it does me fine. I continue to be amazed at the money people throw at fancy gadgets to set router bit and saw blade heights when a combination square, and optionally a vernier caliper, will set them to perfection.

Great story Lance, thanks for taking the time.
I have had my 6” Starret Combination Square fo about 20 years now, and I suspect its at least as old as me.
I bought them from a Widow that was selling off her late husbands tools, he was an engineer in one of the Sugar Mills up this way. She was advised by one of his colleagues what to charge for them. I remember I thought at the time that I paid too much for the set, but I was not about to try and bargain for a lower price. I told her what I did for a living, and that my hobby was woodworking which was what I wanted the square for, she was happy that her husbands tools would be continued to be used. As I was about to leave , she picked up some inside and outside callipers, and a set of dividers, and gave them to me.
It was a touching moment, I think of her every I use those tools.

My Dad got his Starret combo square at a garage sale for $5.

Originally Posted by damian

I set out starry eyed to buy teh very best tools. I've still got most of my stahwille spanners.

When I was a first year apprentice, I bought a full set of Stahlwille ring/open end spanners , 1/4” to 1 1/2”, they cost me $205 , which was more than 2 weeks pay back then. I still use them to make a living.

As a carpenter, I gave up on combination squares years ago. The little pins that align the blade to the head would often snap and I was forever getting stabbed by it from its spot in my nail bag. I now use a small roofing square, triangular in shape and am confident it will remain square even after being dropped. I must confess to lusting after the original Rabone CS with the cast iron head. An old boss from many years ago had one

Originally Posted by LanceC

The price of a Starrett horrified me, at nearly seven times the price of the Empire. Popular opinion by those who use and rely on their squares for their day jobs year after year however is near unanimous; Starrett is accurate and should remain so for your working life. Despite scouring the second hand market for a couple of months, nothing showed up, so finally swallowed the lump in my throat, bit the bullet and bought a new one.

I too bought a cheaper combination square many years ago, went through a similar process to you, but managed to hang in long enough to find a second hand Starrett. It’s in a different league to the cheapies, and like you, if it vanished, I’d replace it with another one.

Lance,
Empire squares cost even less than you paid all those years ago. I got one about a year ago when my last one broke the hook thingie that holds the ruler. I think the empire is pretty good value and also think everyone needs a combination square as it is so versatile. They do get out of square after a while but simple to fix with a small file. I have a few other squares but a combination would be the pick if I could only have one.
Regards
John

Originally Posted by orraloon

I think the empire is pretty good value and also think everyone needs a combination square as it is so versatile. They do get out of square after a while but simple to fix with a small file.

Yes. I think the Empire is great value. But like everything else, it has its limitations. Had I not started doing more hand tool work where layout became so critical, perhaps it would have been good enough for a lot longer, if not forever. The other point though, it that of being able to trust your measurement tools. Yes they can be adjusted with a file, but in all seriousness, does anyone actually do it?

A couple of anecdotes:

1. My Dad has a bunch of really cheep and nasty tools, but also had a little drawer unit with his special tools. As a retired toolmaker he is incredibly picky about tools that need to be accurate, but there are plenty of tools that don't need to be, of which he just buys what will get the job done. Horses for courses.
2. As an very occasional fisherman, I had a nice set of pliers that lived in my tackle box which always used to corrode shut despite my best efforts of keeping them clean. When fishing with a local expert he advised me to go and get a set from the two dollar shop instead. His reasoning was that the tolerances in the joint were so bad that it was hard for them to rust shut. Again, horses for courses.

Yes, bought a cheap 150mm CS and regretted it, threw it out and replaced it with two combination squares:
a Stanley professional CS (the one Paul Sellers recommends) bought secondhand in good condition for $10, and
a Starrett 100mm CS bought new ($$$ - ouch!)
Knowing I can trust these makes for a better woodworking experience

I have one of these, it’s so far ahead of the rest it’s not even funny. Looks weird but works brilliantly. Roofus Tools - The Tool of the future for Carpentry

Many years ago, when I was still a fresh-faced punk, I was given a Stanley CS.

I quickly worked out that as far as squares go, it wasn't... but as a cheap adjustable rule/depth marker it was a wonderful device.

I don't think I've ever used mine as a square, but it's still a regular user. Along with a couple of other immigrants that crept into my tool-box somehow.

As an aside, I used to carry an even cheaper adjustable wooden scribe in my tool-box to mark out joints etc. Lost many, many of them on-site but no-one ever nicked the CS's. Huh!

Originally Posted by LanceC

...... Yes they can be adjusted with a file, but in all seriousness, does anyone actually do it? ...

Yep.

Mine's a Rabone, considered a moderately good brand, though not in the Starett league. I bought it sometime in the early 70s, iirc. After about 25 years of regular use it got a bit out of whack, so I decided to have a go at re-calibrating it. The way the slot for the blade is cut leaves a raised section on the bottom of the slot, which makes things a lot easier. I used an auger file (the end which has safe faces & cuts on the sides only) to shave a teeny bit off the high side. It was a fiddly job and I was afraid of over-doing it, so I kept assembling & testing it after just a couple of light passes with the file. Eventually, I had it spot-on again. That was quite a while ago now, and about the time I fixed it I acquired my first Clenton square, which I find far nicer to use for woodworking, so the Rabone only gets used as a depth-gauge or where I need a very stubby square on some job. So I would not expect to need to fix it again in my lifetime...

Cheers

I have also had a go at this and found it like Ian describes a bit of a fiddle but got things back on line. I was thinking that should be good for another 20 years or so but not long after that the brass adjusting screw/hook thing broke so that was the end of that one. At the time I thought a square thats not square is useless so what is there to loose.
Regards
John

Hi Lance,

thanks for your post with photos.

there is an old saying about the quality in manufacturing..

' built up to a standard, not down to a price '

which goes along with.....

' you get what you pay for '

having said that, my Stanley combination square with aluminium stock and a steel rule
that I bought back in 1977 is still showing to be accurate.

Graham.

One of the most bolatent BAD tools that I have come across was an adjustable square - PLASTIC chrome plated adjusting screw -REALLY an absolute con -best thrown in the bin as soon as you realise - made to be sold - not used.
Glorious peoples republic of course.