Thread: Mystery saw

Interesting stamp. To my eyes it may suggest the tooth count is in ppi. It looks like a point to the top of a tooth.

Stewie;

Hi J.

The three holes in a row vertically indicate an "older-style" handle like on the Disston #7 ... and #9 and #12.
with the 'stand-off' handle that isn't set into the blade.
The older english handles were very much that way .. say pre-1900.
http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/7page.html

Unless the holes have been enlarged, they look pretty big. The original split-nut shafts were very thin, so at a guess american and after 1890.

The #12 and #9 ... and I think #16 Disstons had an X stamp to indicate that they got the extra production steps ... I think there have been some 'J's too. I can't recall hearing of under the handle stamps on any english saws - but I could be wrong.

Here's a #12 X ... and a good page I hadn't read before ... It looks different to yours.
http://www.takeadiptools.com/page5.php

But this X has feet on it like yours ... it could be from a nice saw originally.
http://thesawblog.com/?p=275

The big question of course is ... what does the blade *sound like* ...
(if you're dumb enough to fall for the bait, hold the blade solidly with some pliers and boing it gently with a finger or a pencil rubber etc)


Paul


Some big close-up pics here of a #12 ... X with feet ...
http://zengrain.com/saws/dating-deta...ndle-markings/

Originally Posted by pmcgee

The big question of course is ... what does the blade *sound like* ...
(if you're dumb enough to fall for the bait, hold the blade solidly with some pliers and boing it gently with a finger or a pencil rubber etc)

Haha I am not even going to attempt to describe the sound but it has quite a nice bell sound to it.
I am no expert but the steel used for this saw does look and sound better than any other vintage saw in my collection.

Thanks for all the links! My google searches didn't bring up any of those.

Originally Posted by johnnyrsa

Haha I am not even going to attempt to describe the sound but it has quite a nice bell sound to it.

Got another one going.
Paul

Originally Posted by pmcgee

Got another one going.
Paul

He had me there for a while (You evil person )
I played around in Photoshop yesterday, taking photos from old Disstons and imposing them over mine but none of the holes line up perfectly Did they drill them by hand back then?

Originally Posted by johnnyrsa

He had me there for a while (You evil person )
I played around in Photoshop yesterday, taking photos from old Disstons and imposing them over mine but none of the holes line up perfectly Did they drill them by hand back then?

I didn't mean the boinging was a joke ... at least not from my perspective.
Just getting another person to do it is enough for me.
But it sounds like it is a nice piece of metal.

No real consistency for the holes I don't think ... they made sooooo many ... although I've had some D8s match up precisely.

Here is an old english (and US) style ... more 1850s ... with the snub nose at the front of the handle
http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/s402.html

and you can possibly tell how thin the posts of the split-nuts are.

Cheers,
Paul

Paul, I meant to ask you this question before, but got distracted & forgot 'til now. Are you suggesting that the ringing is an inherent quality of the metal in the saw, and therefore a measure of metal quality?? While you may be right, I would think it more likely comes from the tension worked into the blade at manufacture, rather than anything in the steel alloy per se. If so, it would be more of an indication of quality of workmanship (but still indicative of a 'good' saw), wouldn't it?

As the blade is filed down, the original tensioning must be thrown out of whack a bit, so that would affect its tone quality. And the thing I most wonder about, is the effect of rust. Since the tensioning affects mainly the outer few thou of metal, it must be altered to some extent by rust eating away the surface. So while a good ring in a saw should indicate it still has its tension, a duller sound may not be the death-knell - it may still be a perfectly good bit of metal, just needing a jolly good beating to bring it to its senses.....

It amazes me that many decent-quality old saws still have excellent tension, while some have definitely lost it. Have the good ones been refreshed from time to time by canny sawdocs, while the others slowly died of neglect? Or were the dullards just left lying in the Aussie sun for too long (it's said to be a way of reducing brittleness, but I couldn't get it to work on the saw I tried it on!)? Does tension diminish spontaneously over time??? So many things I don't know....!

Cheers,

I wonder also if the taper grind impacts / improves the bell like nature of the saw?
I'm reminded of the method of making a wine glass ring by rubbing a wet finger around the rim causing the glass to vibrate like a bell. This doesn't work much, if at all, on machine made glasses where the wall thickness is very constant but hand blown glass which tends to taper, rings loudly.
A brass bell also tapers significantly.
I understand that the saw grinding process was done by eye, so each blade could vary by time of day, day of week and skill of worker!
As an aside, there is a photo on a saw blog of discarded stone grinding wheels from the Disston factory used to make a sea wall on the banks of the Delaware here: http://positiverake.com/?p=1

Just to get the thread back on track, according to the Stanley book by Walter Jacob, Stanley made saw handles to a Spear and Jackson pattern from 1865-1902. These came with no holes in them. So there must have been some market for user made saws out there with off the shelf components.
Stanley made 8 types of handle:
1 Extra. Full size, Mahogany, Polished edges,
1. Full Size, Cherry, Polished edges,
2. Full Size, Beech, Polished edges,
3. Full Size, Beech, Plain edges,
4. Small panel, Beech, Polished edges for 16 to 20 inch saws,
5. Meat Saw, Beech, Polished edges,
6. Compass Saw, Beech, Polished edges,
7. Back Saw, Beech, Polished edges,

So you may well have been able to purchase a plate from Disston or Simonds and fit your own Stanley made handle (in the shape of S&P).
And as they tighten the last saw nut they are thinking to themselves, this'll confuse the collectors in another century ... Or maybe not.

Originally Posted by IanW

Paul, I meant to ask you this question before, but got distracted & forgot 'til now. Are you suggesting that the ringing is an inherent quality of the metal in the saw, and therefore a measure of metal quality?? While you may be right, I would think it more likely comes from the tension worked into the blade at manufacture, rather than anything in the steel alloy per se. If so, it would be more of an indication of quality of workmanship (but still indicative of a 'good' saw), wouldn't it?

No IanW ... as you say ... all from the workmanship. And yet it is curious ... I have saws of all sorts here that exhibit varying degrees of a bell-like, sustained ringing ... up to 3- or 4-mississippi some of them. Hardware-store personalised ones, some #7s, english saws ...

The Disston #12s are the most reliably predictable in sounding nice. I'd like to know more about how they were seen in the market-place. The Disston name already added to the starting price of the mainline saws (from #7 up), and the #12s were expensive Disstons.
I might have maybe 30 of them here, and a third to a half have really been used hard. The handles are busted and scratched up, paint drips, etc. Unless it was a status thing, you'd think you might have a 5ppi #7 for ripping, and your 10ppi or 12ppi #12 for fine work ... but there are plenty of 5ppi #12s around ... and plenty online of all pitches with their handles really totalled.

They did mark certain blanks with a stamp to indicate the ones for the extra processing steps ... but I don't know the stage that happened at. One of the Disston books (online) details all the steps that went into production and there were A LOT of steps!

I'm prepared to believe you about the depth of tensioning ... I've never heard it put that way ... but then ...
a. with the width only 30-40thou thick ... its significant I guess, and
b. just thinking about metal as a continuous material ... any change at one point effects the surrounding area ... less and less with increasing distance ... but I'm picturing lifting up the doona on the bed at one corner, it lifts the material for a certain distance around also. I'm thinking there would be gradients of tension within the metal.

Cheers,
Paul