Thread: Mystery of the screws made from nails in a Hahn Plane.

I wouldn't have a clue but it's a great story and you have to love that screw!

Trevor, what features indicate these are 'modified nails' and not screws made to order in some small machine shop??

Just curious....
Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

what features indicate these are 'modified nails' and not screws made to order in some small machine shop??

Hi Ian,
Straight up with a good question!
The first give away is the cleats on the shaft of the nails, it's a feature of nails to stop them from lifting from the timber once driven.
There would be no point in having cleats on a wood screw, as they would tear the timber away from the shank as it was turned into the wood.
Next is the Bristol slots on the top are cut off centre.
Also the heads of the nails are not centred, and have striking marks under their face caused when they were formed.
Hope that helps.
Cheers.







cleats

Just a small question/observation about the nail cleats - are they designed to flare as the nail is driven home? Otherwise they would appear to be facing in the wrong direction and not acting as a barb on a hook.

Beautiful planes, by the way.

Originally Posted by Berlin

Just a small question/observation about the nail cleats - are they designed to flare as the nail is driven home? Otherwise they would appear to be facing in the wrong direction and not acting as a barb on a hook.

Beautiful planes, by the way.

Which is one reason I asked my question. It took it that the 'cleats' are where the shaft was gripped while someone or something pounded the end to form the head, which would cause precisely that 'reversed' pattern...... The other features could be easily ascribed to crude manufacturing techniques, e.g., slotting with a hacksaw. That's how I make screws & they are often (just a little) off-centre! Anyways, they most certainly have a 'home made' aura about them, from your description.

And yes, they are interesting tools - the woodwork looks beautiful - aged & polished from use - were they good planes to use??

I'm amazed by the number of hand planes that pop up that I've not even heard of before - does anyone know how many different Bailey knock-offs were made in the late 19th to early 20th century? There must have been dozens!

Cheers,

Originally Posted by Berlin

Just a small question/observation about the nail cleats - are they designed to flare as the nail is driven home? Otherwise they would appear to be facing in the wrong direction and not acting as a barb on a hook.

Beautiful planes, by the way.

To the best of my knowledge the reasoning behind the cleats goes like this.
When you drive a nail, no matter how hard you try the nail will always twist as it goes through the timber.
Therefore although the cleats tear through the wood, the path they cut is not a truely straight one.
Added to that the timbers natural tendency to close behind the cleats, you should be left with a nail
that is less likely to lift.

Thats as I understand it, and I wont be surprised if I'm shot down in flames.

And thanks for the complement on the planes!

Repliconics,

I have always understood that those "cleats" are, as Ian said, from the gripping mechanism when the head of the nail was being formed. If you were nailing two pieces of timber together you'd be wanting the cleats to grab in the lower piece which is not going to happen when the're at the top of the shank. Some fencing staples, for example, have a barb formed on the lower part of their shanks for this purpose. Also the underside of the heads of the "nails" in your photos says screw to me.
Having said that, I don't remember ever having seen grip marks on screws.

Geoff.

Originally Posted by Boringgeoff

.......Having said that, I don't remember ever having seen grip marks on screws....

Geoff, I would like to know how they avoid or get rid of them. Every reference I can find with Google says the heads are formed by whacking the end, so the blank has to be held pretty firmly, somehow. I buy slotted head brass screws by the box, & every now & then I find a partly-formed screw in the box. These have the countersunk head neatly formed, plus the slot, but the shaft is still parallel & unmarked. So I have often pondered a) how these managed to skip the thread-rolling step & end up in my box of screws, and b) how that head got formed without a single mark evident on the shaft!

Maybe I should ask over on the metalwork part of the Forum.......

Cheers,

Originally Posted by Boringgeoff

Repliconics,

I have always understood that those "cleats" are, as Ian said, from the gripping mechanism when the head of the nail was being formed. If you were nailing two pieces of timber together you'd be wanting the cleats to grab in the lower piece which is not going to happen when the're at the top of the shank. Some fencing staples, for example, have a barb formed on the lower part of their shanks for this purpose. Also the underside of the heads of the "nails" in your photos says screw to me.
Having said that, I don't remember ever having seen grip marks on screws.

Geoff.

Geoff & Trevor
those screws in the Hahn planes have been reported as converted screws for as long as I have been collecting planes ..... 25 years or so. I guess the folk at the source, doing the early research, have seen the nails and the screws side by side.
Here is a picture of some nails from a turn of the century tool chest.
Look at the flat head nail. It even has the same mark under the head, a line in the counter sink, like those on the plane"s screws.
I understand the grip used during the forging process was responsible for the marks on the shank and under the head.
Not a stretch at all to think of a couple of good reasons to use nails...any small business owner will know the reasons
Having run a small business through 3 recessions, including one we "had to have" ..
(nice planes Trevor!)
Maybe I should start a thread about Stanley competitors...???
Regards,
Peter

Well Peter to state the obvious," you've nailed it".

IMG_0750.jpg IMG_0751.jpg

A quick look at your picture, and comparative glance at these tell's the story.
Edwin Hahn either got them with the stock he purchased from Jacob Siegley,
or a small workshop in or around Wilkes-barre was producing them.

IMG_0744.jpg

Here's a couple of my Hahn planes to compare to the Siegley's.
The large one at the back is an early No.14 Jointer Plane, and the
one in front is an early No.6 Jack Plane.
As you can see apart from the adjustment screws in the cap, they
are pretty much dead ringers fr the Siegley's.

Thanks for your input Peter, Brilliant!

Originally Posted by lightwood

......Maybe I should start a thread about Stanley competitors...???

Please do, Peter, I would be very interested in whatever you can tell us. Apart from the sheer number of them, the various little quirks they used for getting around patents (or not!) is fascinating.....

Cheers,

Thanks Peter,

You've convinced me, if that's knowledge you've had for more than 25 years then it's probably correct. Years ago I came across a small engine in use on a farm and the fuel cap was attached to a chain on the end of which was a bent nail to retain the chain in the tank. I commented on it and the boss said that all that make of engine use a nail like that. That shows that the easiest/cheapest option for that fuel tank manufacturer was buy a box of nails rather than a length of rod to be cut into pieces.
Thanks for the enlightenment.
Geoff.

Peter and Geoff,
Thanks for your input on this one, it's been a real help to me.
As Peter said the story of Edwin Hahn using modified nails as screws, has been around for a long time.
But it would appear that Jacob Siegley, was either making or purchasing them before Hahn started making his plane.
Suggesting that Hahn probably aquired them from Siegley, as later Hahn planes have conventional screws.
Maybe Edwin Hahn wasn't so poor after all, just a good businessman!

Thanks Guys.