Thread: C. Nurse Dovetail Saw restoration

Interesting Stewie. From what era is that drawing? It looks very early (mid 1800s). I am assuming it is not a specific brand.

Regards
Paul

In fact the drawing is reminiscent of the Kenyon saws, which would make them late 18th century.

Regards
Paul

Hi Paul

The photos that Stewie posted are from Smith's Key. Joseph Key was an English engraver who published a book on woodworking edge tools in 1816. Matt Bianci does a great job of discussing it here, but unfortunately I cannot get all the images to come up. I did find another source here.

These suggest that there were some saws with tapered plates. However I tend to agree with Pete Taran that the great majority of "tapered" saws were more likely a result of being dropped.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Regards fro Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

...... I tend to agree with Pete Taran that the great majority of "tapered" saws were more likely a result of being dropped.....

Or constant re-sharpening, with heavier jointing or extra filing towards the toe. I don't seem to get much support on this idea, but I'm quite convinced it happens, particularly as I created a few canted blades myself over the years, quite unconsciously.

Whether the spine has been knocked out of whack should be relatively easy to determine in most cases, I venture. Derek, your saw had a telltale mark where the spine had sat for quite a while at some point of the saw's life, but even without a 'witness mark', how the spine sits in the handle rebate should give you an early indication of whether it has been knocked down at the front or not. On most saws, the top of the front of the handle which receives the spine is usually roughly parallel to the spine. When I see it sticking out more at the back than the front, it's usually an ondicator that it's not sitting parallel to the top of the blade.

However, I've seen enough saws with canted blades and the spine is parallel & fitted the handle rebate neatly, so these saws either left the factory that way, or were made that way during use. We know for sure that one manufacturer made canted blades; it doesn't stretch credulity too far to think a few others copied the look - it does, after all give the saw a bit of a 'racy' outline...

I agree, Ian.

One other feature "amuses" me: some of the tapered saws appear to take the taper into a fashion element. The taper is exaggerated - as with the Nurse saw when received and when initially cleaned up.

Taper has two purposes in my opinion. Firstly, its aim is to reduce the mass at the toe and create a better balance. The second, and more relevant perhaps, is that it aids in preventing sawing too deep at the far end of a cut, where the sawyer cannot see the depth. The taper really does not need to be much, perhaps 1/16" - 1/8". Yet we see saw plates with tapers many times that.

The other issue with tapered plates, which is directed more to the sawmaker, is where do you measure hang - at the tooth line or the saw back?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

.....some of the tapered saws appear to take the taper into a fashion element......

Derek, in my opinion, that is its only purpose....

Originally Posted by derekcohen

.....Taper has two purposes in my opinion. Firstly, its aim is to reduce the mass at the toe and create a better balance. The second, and more relevant perhaps, is that it aids in preventing sawing too deep at the far end of a cut, where the sawyer cannot see the depth. The taper really does not need to be much, perhaps 1/16" - 1/8". Yet we see saw plates with tapers many times that...

Derek, I assume you mean a visual balance, like entasis on a Greek column? The small wedge of saw plate you remove to create even a pronounced cant would need a beam-balance to detect! These two saws are a 'matched pair', except one has cant & the other a parallel blade, and I would defy anyone to pick which is which blindfolded: Gidgee pair.jpg

The idea that the cant has some function was extensively debated in a thread a while back. Ch!ppy was adamant that it has functional value and helped him make level cuts, too. He took some trouble to explain how it worked for him, but his explanation just didn't seem logical to me. If the spine were parallel with the tooth line, I could see it being used as a guide, by sighting it to the top of the work or the bench-top, but a canted back?

My view is that the biggest aid in making cuts that hit the line back & front simultaneously, is to have the 'right' grip angle. In the pic above, the top saw grip is optimised (for me) to saw at bench-top height, & the grip is angled up a bit, while the lower saw is a dovetailer, used most often above bench height, and the grip has a much steeper angle. When I hold that saw in a comfortable 'neutral' grip at the height it's designed for, the tooth line is roughly parallel to the bench - I barely need to check at the end of each cut that I've hit the line at the back.

Cheers,

Fashion, style, aesthetics etc. are a very subjective issue. The sloped plate reducing in depth towards the toe offends my sensibilities. I almost need to see the parallel plate to appreciate the saw's beauty: It just looks odd to my eye any other way.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by derekcohen

I agree, Ian.

The other issue with tapered plates, which is directed more to the sawmaker, is where do you measure hang - at the tooth line or the saw back?

Regards from Perth

Derek

I would think the tooth line is what you should measure from.

For a long time, it was debated quite vigorously whether in fact early saws were canted or not, after a while the evidence became overwhelming to confirm that early saws were in fact canted, tapered both in the spine and in the blade, the style seems to have changed in the mid 1800's to a parallel blade.

My personal preference is for a tapered blade, but it's not a deal breaker either way. As to why the early saws were tapered, the jury is still out on whether it was a style thing or some other subtle refinement that's been long forgotten.

Ray

However I tend to agree with Pete Taran that the great majority of "tapered" saws were more likely a result of being dropped

.

I was quite surprised when Pete Taran made that comment. His depth of understanding should be better than that.

Part of a recent discussion on canted saw plates on backsaws (posts #32 - #45.)

C.Nurse dovetail saw restoration - Page 3

Originally Posted by planemaker

.

However I tend to agree with Pete Taran that the great majority of "tapered" saws were more likely a result of being dropped

I was quite surprised when Pete Taran made that comment. His depth of understanding should be better than that.

Pete will argue that all saws were non-tapered to begin with. I don't think that is correct. There were tapered saws. However, many saws that appear to be tapered probably were not made that way.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Fashion, style, aesthetics etc. are a very subjective issue. The sloped plate reducing in depth towards the toe offends my sensibilities. I almost need to see the parallel plate to appreciate the saw's beauty: It just looks odd to my eye any other way.......

Yep, all good, Paul, heaven forbid we all follow a single path!

Not sure why I like canted blades, but I think it's because on a small saw, it just look more visually balanced, or streamlined, it just appeals to my eye.

Funny thing though, it looks odd to me on a larger backsaw, so I've never thought of canting a 350mm tenon saw, but obviously others have, as per Stewie's post. My most daring stylistic plunge has been a few of these, based on the Disston D9 style (or is it D19, I've seen it referred to by both numbers?): Irwin reborn12tpi Lancewood red.jpg

Although I made them purely for the look, I've found the extended nose can actually be very useful, on occasions. For example, I needed to make some long, neat cuts in 9mm ply, and while you could do this bit with a plain square blade: sawing ply1.jpg the extra 'nose' enabled me to easily finish the cut square: sawing ply2.jpg

Not what I had in mind when I made the saw, but necessity begets invention...

Cheers,

Not that it matters much at this point, but the barber and genn saws that I referred to that were copies were made in the late 1800s and not the late 1900s. Substantial only to the extent that all kinds of junk was being made in the late 1900s for hobbyists whereas stuff in the late 1800s would not have been made for hobbyists.

Those late 1800s saws definitely came with a toothline further from the spine at the back than the front.