Thread: C. Nurse Dovetail Saw restoration

Nice one, Derek, and a nice restoration. There is an allure to old tools that something fresh off the production-line just can't match, even if it is a more functional thing. This one now has both looks and function; you can't beat that!

Originally Posted by derekcohen

.... and the saw nuts were replaced......

You sort of glossed over that; it looks like both nuts and bolts were replaced, with brand-new ones, which you 'just happened to have prepared earlier' ..... ??

Now, a matter of semantics: It looks to me like you have not changed the 'hang', but set the handle lower on the plate, with the grip at the same angle to the tooth line (which is what I understand as the 'hang angle'), as it was originally. Or are my eyes deceiving me?

It's curious that the spine didn't seem to fit properly in the handle as-found. A lot of saws I've seen have the spine bashed down towards the front, but everything usually lines up fine when you return it to where it would've been when it left the factory. As you said, it looks like the spine was sitting parallel to the back at some stage of its life. And that rear bolt-hole being only half in the plate is odd - I've seen a lot that are close to the edge, but not almost missing it like it was on your saw. Maybe this saw was assembled at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon? (Make that 8PM on a Saturday - they worked 6 day weeks and long hours back then )

Cheers,

Hi Derek & all,
You don't see C. Nurse & co. come up very often.
Well a few years ago I bought a few pieces from an older person. Got to know him rather well after a time. Showed me some Books, & amongst them was a Hard Cover of C. Nurse & Co. Catalogue, dated Jan. 1914, which they lent me to have a look at. Took it back, & Pat said, more use to you than me, so you may as well keep it
I now see I received it in 2001.
It's condition was just fair, took it to our local Bookbinder, & for $25 he did the most marvelous job you wood wish to see. Pat thought so too.
I quite often take it from my Library to have a look. It even has some extra printed matter to the words of, " Prices have advanced 10%."
Some others were 15% & one was 33½%, with Pencil markings change of Price.
Just found your saw Derek. So 9in. Brass Heavy Back was UK 5 Shillings. No word on TPI.
I'm a very lucky person to have this Book. Thanks Pat & Margaret. Sadly not with us anymore.

Hi Issatree

Is there a picture of the saw in your book? If so, can you post a photo, please? Also, any specs (dimensions etc) for the saw.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I have essentially the same saw, but without the spine issues, and no "invicta" mark. Same beech handle style, though, aggressive hang. The plate that came on mine had seen some rust in the past, but it was superficial. At the time, i was building saws and I ordered a plate from wenzloff and replaced it and that was that. The plate in mine was about 18 thousandths thick. It's still a nice saw, but I have made a dovetail saw that is a little bit better in terms of performance and so it hangs on the side of my saw till and doesn't get used - but it is too pretty to sell off. Way too pretty, with a vintage style that mine does not have.

I'd love to see a photo of it, Dave. Can you post one?

Specs - depth of plate and tpi?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

I'd love to see a photo of it, Dave. Can you post one?

Specs - depth of plate and tpi?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Will do. I think the plate depth is 2 inches, 16 teeth per inch. 9 inches long at the toothline if I recall, but I'll confirm all of that when I take a picture. In terms of the cost of good saws in the US, I remember getting it as a reasonable cost saw (the original plate would've worked fine for the duration) - it was about $45 shipped from the UK. I'm sure my kit saws have cost me more.

Derek

That is a very nice looking back saw and it has come up beautifully.

I think your conjecture that C. Nurse saws were made by Thomas Turner could be right on the money. Have a look at this Thos. Turner:

Thos. Turner 004.jpgThos. Turner 001.jpgThos. Turner 002.jpgThos. Turner 003.jpg

I think there is more than a passing resemblance. My saw is 12ppi, but the plate measures .020" with no taper. The handle was the same colour as your saw originally, but I "tarted" it up a little (red ) as I was going through a mahogany phase, but I'm over that now.

I don't know too much about the saw except that it was identified for me by Forum members in this thread:

Back/Dovetail saw identification

The saw originally belonged to my father and I keep it for sentimental reasons. Having said that, after I got it out for the "photo shoot" I needed a saw and it was still lying on the bench so I used it. It is sharpened crosscut and performs like a beauty.

Regards
Paul

Here is the nurse saw. I'll preface by saying that I've made five saws now and I really don't enjoy it at all, so they don't get the same amount of thought as I give planes. I just want saws that work well and when I have one of each type, I'm done.

https://s18.postimg.org/kjqecel6x/20160901_070147.jpg
https://s18.postimg.org/itbyont1l/20160901_070218.jpg

i was wrong, it does have the invicta mark below the horse, but slightly different than yours. The back is not perfectly straight, either, it has sway in the middle, but no twist and no marks to imply that it was bent after manufacture. I think it was made that way.

The plate is 8 inches long and 1.75" below the back. It would be a better working saw if it was two inches longer and a little less below the back, but it is overall a nice saw to use - a bit aggressive. 16 teeth per inch. I could solve the aggressiveness by changing the rake, but it would be a slow cutter then.

Thanks Dave. Your handle looks different from mine. It is a little boxier and has an extra pip at the lower end. The plate looks like new! Nice saw.

I have dovetail saws that range between 8" and 10". I thought the 8" would be too short, but it has not been. Most of them cut so fast that the length does not come into play.

Regards from Perth

Derek

The length is an illustration of why people need to try saws on their own instead of taking recommendations from blogs (as so many folks do, for example take a recommendation right out of Schwartz's blog, or whoever their chosen hero may be).

If I remember, I shorten the stroke a little bit. If I don't, then i end up with that particular saw out of the cut.

You're right about the plate - it looks like it's new because it is new. The plate that was on it had uniform prior surface rust, but would've been fine. I bought several kits at the same time and figured i'd replate it, and tossed the old plate. I think the old plate would look better, but no matter. re: the handle pattern, since invicta was a seller of stuff rather than a maker, who knows if the saws were even made by the same place - it's possible they were.

I looked briefly after posting this, as i don't have a great deal of interest in making more saws, perhaps with the exception of trying to duplicate the style of the seaton chest open handled saws. The price of a decent saw such as ours, in good nick, is more than I want to pay any longer. Most dovetail saws made more recently (before the boutique makers came into play) are of a style that I wouldn't want to use, but I have this and another saw that I use commonly so I have no real need for anything more.

Originally Posted by D.W.

The length is an illustration of why people need to try saws on their own instead of taking recommendations from blogs....

Yep, been banging on about that for years! You really need to try a saw, not just for blade length, but for the grip angle, overall weight & so-on. A saw that feels right definitely does better work.

It's amazing to me what a difference even an inch can make, when you first pick up a saw. I can usually adjust to the length of a strange saw pretty quickly, but if the handle isn't to my taste, it feels awkward all the way.

Something I haven't seen advocated anywhere else, but I've been doing it as long as I've been sharpening saws: I file the first tooth at the toe end back with about 45 degrees of negative rake, so that if you do pull the saw back right into the cut, as you are wont to do with short blades, it is far less likely to catch on the forward stroke.

Originally Posted by D.W.

....i don't have a great deal of interest in making more saws, perhaps with the exception of trying to duplicate the style of the seaton chest open handled saws. The price of a decent saw such as ours, in good nick, is more than I want to pay any longer. Most dovetail saws made more recently (before the boutique makers came into play) are of a style that I wouldn't want to use, but I have this and another saw that I use commonly so I have no real need for anything more....

Wise to stay away from temptation - it's just another constant distraction from doing all the other things you should be doing. They are endlessly fascinating things, though, so many aspects to alter & play with. Funny thing is, I keep devolving back to specs that have been around for centuries - maybe those old blokes knew a thing or three after all.....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Funny thing is, I keep devolving back to specs that have been around for centuries - maybe those old blokes knew a thing or three after all.....

Cheers,

Amen to that. i don't know much about saws, but I've found the plane designs that dominated for professional customers to be better than any of my own ideas!

Here's an interesting point. Pete Taran is adamant that all these tapered saws are driven by Internet misinformation; that tapered saws were never made in vintage times, and those found were the result of being dropped.

I would say that he has some authority, and has possibly more experience than anyone around today. (For those who are not familiar with his name, Pete started IT saws, which he then sold to LN. He started the company in 1985, and his dovetail saw was responsible for the emergence of boutique sawmakers worldwide, and the renaissance of quality backsaws).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Here's an interesting point. Pete Taran is adamant that all these tapered saws are driven by Internet misinformation; that tapered saws were never made in vintage times, and those found were the result of being dropped.

I would say that he has some authority, and has possibly more experience than anyone around today. (For those who are not familiar with his name, Pete started IT saws, which he then sold to LN. He started the company in 1985, and his dovetail saw was responsible for the emergence of boutique sawmakers worldwide, and the renaissance of quality backsaws).

Regards from Perth

Derek

I guess LN makes a saw with the taper, but who else does it? Pardon requested if lots of makers now do it, I just don't look at saws much - they don't make me tingle.

There is one make of old saw that is most definitely made with a taper, and that's barber and genn (the only ones without a taper that I've seen are replated). The caveat with them is that there are two runs, and the second run was late 1800s and could very well be tapered due to copying taper that was done by adjustment rather than manufacture. I don't know enough about them to be able to definitively state that most of the old ones aren't as old as they appear to be (though they're well over 100 years old).

I had one and sold it on ebay, it was unmolested and had quite a bit of taper with little wear and no evidence of the spine moving (and the spine wasn't tall enough to move and create the level of taper that it had). Interesting saw, but not interesting enough for a guy like me (who is out of hanging pegs on the saw till) to keep.