Thread: Opinionated = Good (Round 2)

if the hardened tooth hand saws for woodwork where never made, ever again, it would do the world and everyone in it a favour, they would not be missed!

In this day and age, more than any other, when your all so informed about waste, global warming and all that other crap its pure laziness not to sharpen a saw, no excuses! learn to do it or pay someone else to do it.


they should have some excessive tax put on them for the lazy people that insist on using them .. we have to pay for shopping bags nowadays (even though they have cardboard boxes out the back), we cant buy the incandescent globes anymore, well you can but they cost $5-$6 when they used to cost 50cents each. they charge for water now! when they figure out how to charge for air they will, you have to have water tanks installed on new homes now, the list goes on and on...i'm gonna write to that chick with the red hair and make her tax all you lazy people that wont or cant be bothered sharpening your saws!! shame on you!!


cheers
chippy

Originally Posted by Berlin

The problem for me isn't the point of view expressed by this chap but the fact he thinks he's the infallible pope of woodwork.

I keep a hard point for general wood butchery when doing building work and can cut as straight as required but it's only ever going to be a cleaver never a scalpel.

well i've never heard of him before, but much of what he says on there i've said myself at other times...although, those comments on saws look outrageous, reading between the lines it indicates to me he is probably using powered tools and machinery (radial arms, band saws, table saw and/or C/mitre saws etc that would do the bulk of his cutting work) . no doubt his 'recomendations' for hand saws are the bare basics needed to get the job done (at an economical price) with no frills, in a mixed hand tool and in powered workshop the handsaws job is somewhat diminished. he's probably trying to advise people they dont need to spend big to get the job done when everywhere else you look people are advising buying LN or LV or some other boutique brand every time you turn around, it probably does come across as sounding high handed, but a bit refreshing too, to my ears.

i'd hazard a guess he doesnt have a great deal of experience using hand saws though (probably never needed to if working in a powered workshop situation all the time), the comment that he was 'recomended' the disston saw as the height of saw makers art, tells me he doesnt know himself and is only going on what he was told, for all we know it was a poor quality disston he was given, certainly that it must not have been sharpened correctly.. there's not much good about the typical hardened tooth saws, there good for cutting sewer pipes in trenches though, i guess that makes them a sh.. saw .

cheers
chippy

I've been receiving David Savage's newsletters for many years. The web review/recommendation is a few years old.

David is a "high end" furniture maker who specialises in one-off contemporary pieces that sell for extremely high figures. Many of the designs are deliberately "different". It is important (I imagine) that his pieces are easily distinguished from others. David also runs a training program - equally expensive - where the focus is turning out a rounded furniture maker, that is, not only proficient in design and construction, but someone who can run a successful furniture making business. He emphasises proficiency in hand tools, but uses the full range of all tools needed for furniture making.

He writes newsletters and produces videos.

Overall, whether we like his style or not, his work is first class. No doubt he produces excellent graduates from a thorough program. There is a "however". David is first and foremost a salesman. He sells his work, his school and videos. He does this partly by presenting himself as "an independent mind", the rebel about the establishment, that is, from him you get the unvarnished truth. Of course, he is as opinionated as everyone else, but he will write as he is also the only one with enough knowledge and objectivity to know what is good and what is bad. Much of what he has to say is good. However he can be dismissive in a way that reflects an unobjective bias.

At the end of the day David is selling his furniture and his school. Avoid being sucked into his style. Think for yourself.

Regards from Ottawa

Derek

If you want to survive and prosper as a furniture maker you must be a better salesman than craftsman. Being a good craftsman is a prerequisite. The punters aren't going to buy your work because it has been dressed from rough by hand, or hand ripped or any other labour intensive hand work. They buy it because it is well designed, well made and well finished. There is more than enough hand work involved to achive this kind of furniture.

Don't confuse the process with the end. As a Mandarin activity doing it all by hand is it's own reward but you can't expect to get $50 an hour for it.

Originally Posted by Ball Peen

If you want to survive and prosper as a furniture maker you must be a better salesman than craftsman...

Hi Bill

I really don't know about this. There are many top notch furniture makers who trade soley on reputation ... without having to sell themselves over and over in the extraverted manner that David Savage does. Of course there are others who do exactly the same as David, such as Paul Sellers and Rob Cosman, other internet names. These gents are first class furniture makers in their own right. It may be that they are teachers of woodworking vying for students as this could be their main area of earnings these days.

I do think that the salesmanship is more likley to be a personaility thing, reflecting the characters of a few, rather than the rule for furniture makers.

Regards from Ottawa

Derek

Originally Posted by Ball Peen

If you want to survive and prosper as a furniture maker you must be a better salesman than craftsman. Being a good craftsman is a prerequisite. The punters aren't going to buy your work because it has been dressed from rough by hand, or hand ripped or any other labour intensive hand work. They buy it because it is well designed, well made and well finished. There is more than enough hand work involved to achive this kind of furniture.

Don't confuse the process with the end. As a Mandarin activity doing it all by hand is it's own reward but you can't expect to get $50 an hour for it.

no, but a lot of people on these forums arnt making furniture to sell, or run a business, their making items and using hand tools for the simple enjoyment it provides, to get in touch with ,well whatever...its worth pointing out that he does use machinery or power tools, not because its a bad thing or worth less but so people understand the basis for which and where his recommendations are coming from..if he did in fact only use hand tools to make his furniture then no doubt his advise on hand saws would be far different.


cheers
chippy

Originally Posted by ch!ppy

...... they should have some excessive tax put on them for the lazy people that insist on using them ..

Chips, I couldn't agree more! I think my greatest objection to these saws is the sheer waste of metal involved. I reckon you are right on the money (pun intended) and they should put a punitive tax on the damn things, or a deposit/refund scheme where they get recycled in some form, even if it's only for card scrapers!

At least some brands are made from perfectly good steel (not too sure about yours, Paul - spring steel shouldn't bend easily!) and so disposable blades are a good source of raw material for thosse wanting to have a bash at making a saw, or cutting & filing teeth for practice...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Hi Bill

I really don't know about this. There are many top notch furniture makers who trade soley on reputation ... without having to sell themselves over and over in the extraverted manner that David Savage does. Of course there are others who do exactly the same as David, such as Paul Sellers and Rob Cosman, other internet names. These gents are first class furniture makers in their own right. It may be that they are teachers of woodworking vying for students as this could be their main area of earnings these days.

I do think that the salesmanship is more likley to be a personaility thing, reflecting the characters of a few, rather than the rule for furniture makers.

Regards from Ottawa

Derek

I think we are on the same page with this

and it definitely appears to me they are selling themselves in order to book clients for lessons or vying for DVD sales



cheers
chippy

Originally Posted by IanW

Chips, I couldn't agree more! I think my greatest objection to these saws is the sheer waste of metal involved. I reckon you are right on the money (pun intended) and they should put a punitive tax on the damn things, or a deposit/refund scheme where they get recycled in some form, even if it's only for card scrapers!

At least some brands are made from perfectly good steel (not too sure about yours, Paul - spring steel shouldn't bend easily!) and so disposable blades are a good source of raw material for thosse wanting to have a bash at making a saw, or cutting & filing teeth for practice...

Cheers,

yep cheers Ian...

they dont always make good steel for saws either unfortunately, as you say they often arnt tensioned enough, not always hard enough either, steel is often gummy too, but also they are often made from thicker gauge steel than you would ordinarily or ideally use for a saw of comparable size (which makes them harder to push through the timber)....their idea, or sales pitch (for one of the well known brands) is that its better being thicker and made that way on purpose to stop the uncontrollable flapping you get when drawing the saw backwards ... had to pause for a little laugh, it always tickles me ... strange thing is i bet that little sales pitch works on a lot of people...


cheers
chippy

I could only read a small part of what this Guru had to say about Disston saws etc. You get all kinds of blokes in the trade. The ones who self-promote just make me go deaf. They are so full of themselves that if you walked away from them they probably won't notice.
I consider myself a competent tradesman, with a respect for hand tools and how to use them but if you have access to power tools it makes the job go a bit quicker. You won't get a better result from a LN plane if you can't use it properly and just because you have one doesn't mean you can turn out a job better than some one who has a second hand Stanley. When a job is finished and we stand back to see what we have done I think we all would say "we could have done better". I know I start out with all the right intentions but some things always just don't quite do what you wanted when its all finished.There is always room for improvement.
As far as acquisitions go if you like to look at Catalogues of high end tools and you have the means to buy them -good for you- but if you can only get by with worn out second hand gear what does it matter if you had fun getting a result!

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Hi Bill

I really don't know about this. There are many top notch furniture makers who trade soley on reputation ... without having to sell themselves over and over in the extraverted manner that David Savage does. Of course there are others who do exactly the same as David, such as Paul Sellers and Rob Cosman, other internet names. These gents are first class furniture makers in their own right. It may be that they are teachers of woodworking vying for students as this could be their main area of earnings these days.

I do think that the salesmanship is more likley to be a personaility thing, reflecting the characters of a few, rather than the rule for furniture makers.

Regards from Ottawa

Derek

Word of mouth is a given. The prospective client has already seen and likes your work. Why should they commision something by you? It's not cheap and they could probably get by without it.

The only thing I make for sale these days is elec. double basses. It's a much easier sale, I just let them play a loaner for a week or two usually they order one within 3 days. I let them keep the loaner till I complete the order.

An opinion that I will attribute to Christopher Schwarz, well that is at least I think it is was him that planted the seed in my mind.

"The traditions of mechanical arts are no longer being preserved in the traditions of the professionals."

The professional has to make a successful business in a ever growing and competitive market place, and hence must use every modern contrivance afforded to them and this has always been the case. Skills of the hand and the hand tools require more hours not only in training but also to execute in a modern production environment. More hours mean more cost, a cost that can't be borne apart from a lucky few that manage to find that fine line between commerce and art (which I will call the Mystical Hooey Transition). So we find ourselves in a interesting position in time where in the majority it is the amateurs that are the bastions of hand tools, hand skills and traditional knowledge mainly due to the fact that they do not rely on their craft to feed their families; because they are not purely driven by money.

I started out trying to save a few dollars here and there by making things myself, but I think this is really secondary to my desire to build and create, not just for myself but for loved ones. I needed some furniture and was disheartened by what was available in my budget so I decided to make it myself. I can see that there is a quality in something that is pursued with skill and care which is only heightened in my case by my own inexperience and perseverance. (you need some determination to flatten a 4m x 1.3m a chain saw milled table top with only a #4 and a low angle block plane in a plastic lunch box converted into a makeshift tool box.)

The modern hand saw is not an improvement on the saws of the past.. period. There has been no great innovation or leap of efficiency in hand saws in the last 300 years no matter what the packet says. The modern hard saw is solely the result of the success of the circular saw in all its varieties in the professional and average DIY'er world. The circular saw is superior in almost every way to a hand saw for the professional. The circular saw has made the hand saw almost a relic and of little importance to the professional with the exception being where there is no power available or where working space is very limited. So there is almost no pressure for manufactures to make a quality hand saws for the professional or average DIY'er. Which results in poorer and poorer quality saws overtime, which leads to falling expectation of a hand saw and the manufactures "forget" what makes a good saw until you get to Paul's $5 plastic handled super budget edition that buckles.

One might even think why even have a hand saw?

My reasoning is still a little unclear to even to me but has much more to do with personality and aesthetics than economics(either time or money). All I really can say is that the tools that I do buy have that quality or attribute that is wrought by skill and care into a tool by its maker is the same quality I strive for in my own work. In short respect the tools. Don't get me wrong I still have a modern tradies saw, but I don't respect it; I will quite happy plunge it into chopping up mud filled PVC or hebel block something that I would consider unthinkable with my other saws.

Originally Posted by Brobdingnagian

(you need some determination to flatten a 4m x 1.3m a chain saw milled table top with only a #4 and a low angle block plane in a plastic lunch box converted into a makeshift tool box.)

And I suppose you were blueing it and checking it with a granite plate?

So there is almost no pressure for manufactures to make a quality hand saws for the professional or average DIY'er. Which results in poorer and poorer quality saws overtime, which leads to falling expectation of a hand saw and the manufactures "forget" what makes a good saw until you get to Paul's $5 plastic handled super budget edition that buckles.

I wouldn't go entirely as far as to say there is no modern quality products ... these Irwins I would associate with a level of quality ... I think they would do a good job for a lot of people. Apparently all the Bill's machinery saws were used on PVC pipe ... and we sure wouldn't want those guys eating up good old saws.

When I started buying saws and testing them (without yet attempting any sharpening) it was the Irwin that I was comparing against. When I got it, it cut quite nicely and efficiently ... although I now know that it can be improved on markedly. I wouldn't want it for a 3m rip cut for example - both because of the teeth and the handle.

It is a uniform 40thou and set about 2 thou to each side with japanese-style teeth. It is like a reasonable car with a one-speed gearbox. Ideally with some old saws, some files and a bit of practice you can have several vehicles available from a 1975 landcruiser to a VW hippy van to a sleek ferrari and a kawasaki.

For one thing I can understand a lot of people being non-plussed at the thought of an old saw being valued let alone useable. If you haven't been exposed to the idea, why would it cross your mind?

And let's not be too judgemental. People are interested in different things - I don't know that I will ever spend $s on a Veritas or LN tool ... maybe never even a saw from Wenzloff or Adria. If someone is happy with a modern (disposable) saw and it does a job for them, then great. In fact we should be willing to say what we've found to be a decent sort of a product if one stands out so that others can avoid some of the rubbish. At least by promoting products that do a good job for a good price some consumer feedback might get back to the manufacturers about what is rubbish and what isn't.

The other 'advantage' I might pick up on is the japanese-style teeth. I don't have any ambition yet to manage to create this style of saw with a file, so at least I can pick up a modern saw and try it out to see what it can and can't do.

Cheers,
Paul

This is getting to be an Interesting discussion, I think it's got a few laps to go just yet..

For what it's worth, a good quality hardpoint saw with it's crappy uncomfortable plastic handle does have it's uses, cutting pvc pipes, trimming some MDF, or melamine finished chipboard, or maybe a bit of plywood that can't be manhandled onto the table saw come to mind.

But, as IanW already said, you wouldn't use one to cut dovetails, or other joinery. Yes you could, but there would be a lot of cleanup.

On the other end of the scale, I know of a professional timber framer who does green oak house frames ( he's in the UK ), and uses hand saws for a large part of his work, mostly big rip saws. (Now that's a job that requires physical strength and skill that is mostly lacking these days.) He claims that a good handsaw is about twice as fast in his type of work. The size of the timbers and location being one of the factors, it seems to be that you can get set up to do a cut with a handsaw in next to no time compared with other methods.

Josh asked why use handsaws, my answer is simply that they are still the best tool, and in some cases the only for many jobs around the workshop.

No, I'm not selling the table saw or the bandsaw, they have their place.

Regards
Ray