Thread: Opinionated = Good (Round 2)

For me it isn't hand tools v machines, it's a very practical mix of both. Just because a person owns a machine doesn't mean that person is a skilled or inventive user of that machine. The same can be said about hand tools. How efficient and accurate is the job? Last year at this time I built a trad bench with a trad tailvise in 6 days, one hand joint on the face vise. All machine marks hand dressed. The top still has planer marks, thats only because it is straight and flat. My machines didn't build the bench, I did. I've built them before but not in 6 days. What rankles about these hand tool discussions is a very pious tone can quickly emerge and I'm a hand tool user, adapter and maker. That's just people. On music sites it's learn by ear v notation, elect. tuner v tune by ear. I use all the above. They are just tools.

Originally Posted by Brobdingnagian

An opinion that I will attribute to Christopher Schwarz, well that is at least I think it is was him that planted the seed in my mind.

"The traditions of mechanical arts are no longer being preserved in the traditions of the professionals."

The professional has to make a successful business in a ever growing and competitive market place, and hence must use every modern contrivance afforded to them and this has always been the case. Skills of the hand and the hand tools require more hours not only in training but also to execute in a modern production environment. More hours mean more cost, a cost that can't be borne apart from a lucky few that manage to find that fine line between commerce and art (which I will call the Mystical Hooey Transition). So we find ourselves in a interesting position in time where in the majority it is the amateurs that are the bastions of hand tools, hand skills and traditional knowledge mainly due to the fact that they do not rely on their craft to feed their families; because they are not purely driven by money.

I started out trying to save a few dollars here and there by making things myself, but I think this is really secondary to my desire to build and create, not just for myself but for loved ones. I needed some furniture and was disheartened by what was available in my budget so I decided to make it myself. I can see that there is a quality in something that is pursued with skill and care which is only heightened in my case by my own inexperience and perseverance. (you need some determination to flatten a 4m x 1.3m a chain saw milled table top with only a #4 and a low angle block plane in a plastic lunch box converted into a makeshift tool box.)

The modern hand saw is not an improvement on the saws of the past.. period. There has been no great innovation or leap of efficiency in hand saws in the last 300 years no matter what the packet says. The modern hard saw is solely the result of the success of the circular saw in all its varieties in the professional and average DIY'er world. The circular saw is superior in almost every way to a hand saw for the professional. The circular saw has made the hand saw almost a relic and of little importance to the professional with the exception being where there is no power available or where working space is very limited. So there is almost no pressure for manufactures to make a quality hand saws for the professional or average DIY'er. Which results in poorer and poorer quality saws overtime, which leads to falling expectation of a hand saw and the manufactures "forget" what makes a good saw until you get to Paul's $5 plastic handled super budget edition that buckles.

One might even think why even have a hand saw?

My reasoning is still a little unclear to even to me but has much more to do with personality and aesthetics than economics(either time or money). All I really can say is that the tools that I do buy have that quality or attribute that is wrought by skill and care into a tool by its maker is the same quality I strive for in my own work. In short respect the tools. Don't get me wrong I still have a modern tradies saw, but I don't respect it; I will quite happy plunge it into chopping up mud filled PVC or hebel block something that I would consider unthinkable with my other saws.

attributed to CS !!! nuff said, he has NO credentials (what so ever as a true tradesman or woodworker), he is merely a journo that makes money from writing, much of which i hear is at this time (finally) being shown the light of day, thankfully...guys like this cause more problems than help with their incorrect 'help' (knowledge) on planes and saws etc


i can sense the passion you have, and thats a good thing, but its misplaced in this instance, you also criticise the passion of tradesmen, that they are only interested in money, well i can tell you it is far more than that, i've been doing this work for more years than i care to say, i can say it has it ups and downs, on 40 plus deg days its no fun, on zero or 15 deg days when your up to your knees in mud in a wet winter, even if your working indoors (not always the case) but have to walk back to your tool trailer through the sludge, its no fun, you have supervisors (or you might be the builder, or building supervisor yourself) or owners pressure to get jobs done, with furniture your somewhat protected from the elements but still have shops and owners pressure to fill orders, you have to make enough furniture to pay wages!

but i'll let you in on a little secret, making money is great but my philosophy has always been, do it right and the money comes anyway, just like how i coach footy (a hobby, but intense enough that i've coached at high levels and consulted to some names you ya'll might have heard of) you dont have to coach looking at the score board, just coach right and the scores/wins happen all by themselves!

same with carpentry and cabbie work, i can tell you, whether you believe it or not!, the most joy i get out of it is the people i've taught and worked with, hands down thats the BEST part of it, even ten or 30 or dare i say more years later my old apprentices will buy me a beer and say nice things, no coxing (wrong word but i forget how to spell it), it is without doubt the best part of doing all this work...second best is actually doing the work! i have never built a house (and i have built many thousands) where i haven't driven away without looking back at it, often pausing for an extended look. i've been proud to work on many old homes as well, very old homes as far as Oz is concerned, they often involve much hand tool work. ive built mass furniture for stores many people know, its ordinary but pays wages, it also leaves room for building custom furniture, which equally i cant help but stare at it for ages before its delivered...i dont think there has ever been a piece i have had that left my building without me running my hands over it

its presumptuous, incorrect and insulting to presume tradesmen dont use hand tools, its flat out foolish, naive and stupid to believe hand tools are the sole realm of weekend woodworkers, i'd put up any of my old apprentices against any guru you care to put forward with just hand tools, each and every one of them will beat you so convincingly you would feel stupid! the fact they can also use power tools doesn't diminish their ability, heck i can carve the mono-lisa (well maybe her sister) with a circular saw, waving it above my head with guard removed, naturally not something work safety promote nowadays.....just because they (tradesmen) are taught to use power tools doesn't mean they arnt proficient in hand tools!!! please give some respect, or credit, if not to me but more importantly the new tradesmen coming through, they have earned it!! or ,if i have have anything to say about they will earn it!


cheers,
chippy

Hey Chips, I don't think anyone has impuned your passion or committment to making things and making them as well as you possibly can! But having tried it myself, I know that making a living from any craft is a business, and you have to be as efficient as possible - time is money! Sometimes, you have to justify the cost of doing things 'properly', whether it's hand or machine work, and some people are bettter salesmen than ever I could be. Sometinmes I read the blurbs of these guys & think "what a load of bollocks", but I also kind of envy their self-assurance!

I agree that some people get a bit mystical about hand tools, but we are in the hand-tools section, after all. Many (most?) posters here are amateurs and looking for recreation from their work, not a living, so we should allow them a bit of piety (but not too much! ). Having grown up doing lots of jobs by hand that are far easier & more efficient to do by machine, I don't have the slightest hesitation in switching from one to the other when it seems apprpriate. Ball Peen makes an excelent point that owning a high-end machine doesn't gaurantee a quality product any more than owning a Lie-Nielsen with all the bling. Skill is the most essential ingredient, without doubt, & that needs a bit of time & repetition to acquire, even for those blessed with natural ability (& you must have taught enough apprentices to know how much ability varies!). I get the impression from reading this Forum that a lot of amateurs acknowledge the skill factor, yet still fall for the marketing hype that implies an expensive tool will make instant craftsmen out of chimpanzees. You and anyone else who's been around for a year or two will have seen superb work done with pretty basic tools, and crap made with very expensive ones, so that's obviously a furphy. However, the point has been made that for someone struggling to learn on their own, buying a good tool that works 'out of the box' gives them a reference point that they can't get by buying tools that may be perfectly sound, but need work to bring them up to scratch. So there's room for lots of opinions & attitudes, as long as no-one claims to have a monopoly on the truth - this is craft, folks, not religion, ....

There's a vested interest in pushing the line that (expensive) tools make craftsmen/women, but we just have to keep letting people know the real secret - it takes time & perseverance!

Cheers,

Ian, cant disagree with any that you said and there's nothing wrong with someone expressing a view either, even with a bit of piety i guess...i cant help but stick up for the tradesman though (theres honour at stake ) the young guys i've taught all have a passion for working with wood, even after doing it for years. when they are learning they have a kind of thirst for knowledge (and that includes hand tool use) thats hard to describe and they jump at the opportunity to work using hand tools, i couldnt hold them back if i wanted too ,well maybe not at 4 in the arbo after a long day, especially if it was to involve ripping (which is just being cruel, obviously power saws are used 99 percent of the time for ripping!) but planning they never object to, they still love to use the hand saws though...

but i still cant wear that amateurs are the ''bastions of knowledge'' when it comes to hand tools, hand skills or traditional knowledge! that would be akin to me saying i didnt bother teaching any of these blokes anything, save to press a button and hang on to end of a bit of wood



cheers
chippy

I've dressed a few rough slabs using winding sticks, a straight edge and my eye. A very trad technique to be sure. In my case I use a power plane for the bulk work of dressing. After I smooth with a hand plane and lastly trim off the bark nouveau edge. To my way of thinking the entire opperation is hand work. How can it not be ?

Sorry chipps.
It was't intended as an insult to any profession, workmanship or pride and tranquillity taken in ones work. Merely that as time moves on tools and their skills are left behind on the road to greater efficiency. I said "money" but maybe I should have more aptly said economics. I would hate for you to think that I thought that tradespeople were money driven, most that I know are consummate professionals, with a drive for a job well done and real enjoyment and satisfaction in their work.

The idea is more general than specific, you will always be able to find exceptions.

Lets take the realm of the Drafter, their tools are no longer the drawing board, T-square, pen and compass it is the computer screen and the mouse, their passion has not changed, their skill for layout and communication of detailed and complicated information has not changed. But the pride one might get from a good ink lines to the perfection of a typeset are gone because they are gone. The pride and workmanship is not gone it has just been refocused somewhere else into the craft. But the power of the computer to quickly redraw means the many hundreds of hours saved on revisions or variations is just a force too great to resist, and that has happened just in one generation.

Or the student and arithmetic , the pocket calculator and the mobile phone has rendered mental arithmetic a skill largely of the past(the exception being the times tables). People just don't know numbers like they used to; as in 32x125 is the same as 4x1000.

Same goes for a carpenter with shear power and versatility of a circular saw it is amazing no doubt about that. With a few swift swipes of a circular saw akin to a master swordsman you have a valley rafter. But I would argue a good drop saw and nail gun are more important to the modern framer than a good handsaw and hammer. Same goes for the table saw and the cabinetmaker.

Chippy, Maybe here is the flaw in the argument, power tools and hand tools are obliviously not mutually exclusive, as we all know they can work extremely well together in quality work by taking the time away from making the form to focus on the detail. The argument in reference to a cabinetmaker would be that in an average shop where you are trying to get enough work through the door to pay wages you just can't justify a common workshop practice of ripping a board by hand when you have the power tools available, so some of the skill with and quality of the rip saw itself must be lost by atrophy from the trade as a whole. The only people that can really afford to keep up such a practice is the amateur precisely because there are no economic pressures placed upon them.

I am filled with the greatest respect that you are teaching detailed hand tool use in your workplace, please keep it up as the more diverse an experience the young ones can get, can only enhance creativity and interest in their craft as you have well attested to by not needing to coerce them to pick up plane. Sadly I feel (I maybe wrong) that you are among a few; here at the local tafe I lament as the backsaws, planes and chisels sit mostly idle languishing with dull blades, while focus is towards the cnc machines that get ever larger and ever more capable.

Don't be too hard on CS, I have probably used more emotive language and piety than he did and while he may not have any credentials in a trade other than writing, he is darn good at that. He does spends great amount of time thinking about woodworking and he is very passionate about his writing and his woodwork and is encouraging people to pick up tools and create. Too be sure he draws a lot of his musing from his study of archaic texts, but I can't deny I have found some of his ideas he has dug up to be very handy. There is a lot to be said by looking back to see how we can move forward, I can't think of a better example than Porsches Semper Vivus: a hybrid car in 1900; wow! seriously wow!.

Originally Posted by Brobdingnagian

Don't be too hard on CS, I have probably used more emotive language and piety than he did and while he may not have any credentials in a trade other than writing, he is darn good at that. He does spends great amount of time thinking about woodworking and he is very passionate about his writing and his woodwork and is encouraging people to pick up tools and create. Too be sure he draws a lot of his musing from his study of archaic texts, but I can't deny I have found some of his ideas he has dug up to be very handy. There is a lot to be said by looking back to see how we can move forward,.

Well, Seeing that we are on about opinionated woodworking writers...

I have to admit to being a Chris Schwartz fan, I think some part of the resurgence in woodworking with hand tools is due to the writings of CS, can't say I agree with everything he advocates, ( like the Anarchist Tool Chest's premise that we should minimize the number of tools we have).. It's taken too bl**dy long to get the ones I want...

But his role as a writer and educator and raising the awareness of woodworking techniques, is right up there with St Roy.

Nothing quite as relaxing and entertaining as watching the Woodwright walking with his axe among the city commuters...

Regards
Ray

PS.. In a round about way, Norm Abrams "New Yankee Wokshop" probably had a bigger influence in encouraging hobbyist woodworking than "The Woodwrights Shop" ... but once you start... it's hard to stop.

Originally Posted by RayG

But his role as a writer and educator and raising the awareness of woodworking techniques, is right up there with St Roy.

Nothing quite as relaxing and entertaining as watching the Woodwright walking with his axe among the city commuters...

Regards
Ray

... right past the police-men persons

Regarding St Roy - unbelievable belief, commitment, passion and dedication. How long has it been now?
There must also be a story behind it all about how it managed to continue this long. We know how fickle TV series can appear and disappear within weeks ... and this is in America.
There must have been some great support from the public TV station, university, commercial ventures (state farm the whole time?) etc etc and the public to see it still going strong.
And funny to see him onscreen as a 'young' guy in the first episodes
{{ PS - anyone watched the early episodes of 'Time Team' ... }} { Baldrick + Anorak = }


Regarding CS - I like him. I think his passion as a tool geek forgives just about anything he might say or do
And he's definitely build a damn sight more furniture than I have (ok sure - who hasn't?) ... so I'm on that bandwagon 100%.

Cheers,
Paul

It was James Krenov, Sam Malouf and George Nakashima for me in the 1970s. That probably explains my use of hand and power. These men were design and and end result oriented. Only Krevov was dogmatic about hand tools and I'm glad he was. He had a very good mix, use hand tools where it can make a difference. I 've only been aware of these other guys the last few years. They only seem process oriented.

No worries Brobdingnagian (thats a hell of handle to carry around, i might just call you, mate )

well written and thanks for the kind words, although i am really starting to feel old (but i'm not really, eek!), because you mention drafting, and i still draw up house plans the old fashion way, i've played around with computer programs but if i have to draw up plans for a client and submit them to council, either for an addition or a new home (if the client doesnt already have them) i still prefer to do it the old way, heck what is wrong with me ! i know its quicker by computer but i like putting pen and pencil to paper...as for cnc machines, i barely have a clue about them! your right about arithmetic as well, my own lads are examples and it drives me crazy that they cant do it in their head when i ask them simple problems, no hope what-so ever if its not simple..thing is they are brilliant mathematicians, although only one has do it with his work each day, but without a calculator, no way can they do it

of course your correct, a carpenter building homes wouldn't be without the drop saw, nor a nail gun, they are vital (nail guns were great when they came in, and for a l o n g time after, carpenters were still getting paid as though they were driving nails by hand, which naturally takes longer, but using nails guns made it incredibly quick, you could hear the cash register ringing over), still, i dont know any carpenter that would be without a good hammer, they still get used (intermittently) all day long and we still have competitions driving nails with one or two hits and ragging on someone if they leave a two bob bit impressions. hands saws still get used all over the roof too, its just works out easier and quicker (and safer) than dragging power leads, although i have done it plenty dragging power around the roof and i see many other carpenters doing that, the advantage doesnt really pay off that much so i generally prefer hand saws when working up top, we build in good time, no one would deny my gangs are/were amongst the fastest in SA so i dont feel we have sacrificed anything, on additions or restoration work hand saws in many circumstances are still the go to tool over a power saw, i suspect as the cordless technology gets better and more powerful, more and more people will go that route (i've always said jokingly, for decades, when are they going to have laser saws to use on site, maybe they will one day! ) .also now that generators are more powerful, compact and affordable its easier to have more power tools going (SA is still so backward we often dont have mains power on site until the home is near finished), but without a decent size jenny it doesn't run more than one or two at a time. cant speak for all other carpenters, but I at least, when setting out will usually opt for a hand saw to cut timber to length, i set out pretty fast so the workers cant keep up with me anyway, so it helps pace me and saves my ears from the noise of the power saw or Jenny

i've had a number of different workshops over the years, employing cabbies and pushing a lot of ordinary furniture out the doors (i'd like to think nicer than your average fair, no veneer, all solid wood and put together with joinery, not butt joints or staples etc, and a lot of custom higher end furniture too), but my workshops have always been a bit low tech, possibly because i first came to it from a different angle than might be normal for other cabinet makers. its funny that you mention economics and normally that would make sense , but it was economics that actually lead to me building furniture with some basic machines but much hand tool use too, i didnt want to invest in expensive machines but i had plenty of workers and wages to pay, down time is a killer but cant be avoided due to wet weather or a myriad of other problems that happen with supplies or whatever, normally/traditionally everyone gets sent home but you still have to pay em so as you might imagine i got thrifty and opened a workshop, when no outdoors work could be done or if indoor work had some setbacks they worked in the factory (thats what i called it, really workshop sounds better as is more apt), it didn't/doesn't bother me that it gets built slower than with machines, it was all a bonus to me anyway, in time, as they gain experience they get things done quick enough that even if paying them wages just for that i come out in front and since i had to keep up supply to shops i had people working full time doing just that as well. even though its been mentioned (and i appreciate it from that aspect as well) that the client in the end doesnt care whether its built by hand or machine i found that for many clients being built by hand is one of the main reasons they purchased my furniture over other peoples, i could hardly change things later since i'd already established myself as producing handmade gear, my cabinet making business definitely doesn't pay anywhere near what some of my other work does but it was always a good side business and provides a good change of pace for the guys that work outdoors or on restoration work...i might sound like a slave driver but on hot days i'd supply the coldies, hook up the boat and go fishing, well not really fishing, we rarely take the rods and reels, just float on the water near the shore and the guys flirt with the bikini's on the beach



cheers
chippy

I enjoy all of the woodworking blog and podcast posters I subscribe to. They are all generous with their time and ideas. And, I pick and choose from the information and techniques they disseminate just like I do with the information David Savage shares with the woodworking community.

I consider myself very lucky that I have an online woodworking community to learn from and to exchange ideas with.


Paul

Originally Posted by RayG

Well, Seeing that we are on about opinionated woodworking writers...

I have to admit to being a Chris Schwartz fan, I think some part of the resurgence in woodworking with hand tools is due to the writings of CS, can't say I agree with everything he advocates, ( like the Anarchist Tool Chest's premise that we should minimize the number of tools we have).. It's taken too bl**dy long to get the ones I want...

But his role as a writer and educator and raising the awareness of woodworking techniques, is right up there with St Roy.

Nothing quite as relaxing and entertaining as watching the Woodwright walking with his axe among the city commuters...

Regards
Ray

PS.. In a round about way, Norm Abrams "New Yankee Wokshop" probably had a bigger influence in encouraging hobbyist woodworking than "The Woodwrights Shop" ... but once you start... it's hard to stop.

i like that Roy guy! only seen a few episodes that the post master general puts up, but they are entertaining...but he comes across as giving credit to past tradesman, even current ones..i just dont get that vibe from CS, quite often its the just the opposite and he imo takes credit for a method or discovery of something that has always been around, just rubs me up the wrong way, then wanting to be informed about him i read some of his stuff, i find that a lot of what has been written is almost word for word out of an old book of other authors (without credit given) but he's written it as though its his, other times he just flat gives incorrect advice (all this 'chipbreaker' talk of late has born that out) on planes etc and saws too at times, he often has said on video or written in books his hands saw experience is born from his experience when he was a kid (different ages depending on what source you read) using a blunt saw, it just doesn't work for me and i cant see how someone of his in-experiance can take money for classes to teach others. i dont have a problem with him writing and promoting woodworking or using hand tools, just wish he would give credit to others is all, and not just someone thats been dead for 300 years

Originally Posted by Ball Peen

It was James Krenov, Sam Malouf and George Nakashima for me in the 1970s.

Showing our age, Bill - me too. And don't forget Mr. Frid!

Thank the lord (or maybe Taunton Press ) for FWW - it was an idea for its time. I was living in Canada when the first issue came out, but didn't notice them for about 2 years. By then we had this gorgeous old house but with a couple of kids & both of us graduate students, we were stony broke most of the time. We needed furniture, and the cheap stuff we could find was pretty ghastly stuff, so I started making some. At first it was very basic, but I was constantly inspired by what I saw in successive issues of FWW, a lot of it done by amateurs. Even in those old black & white pics, it looked pretty impressive, so I started trying to lift my game.

In those eraly editions of FWW, I remember a few arguments about hand vs machine work, so nothing is new.

Cheers,

Originally Posted by pmcgee

Regarding St Roy - unbelievable belief, commitment, passion and dedication. How long has it been now?
There must also be a story behind it all about how it managed to continue this long. We know how fickle TV series can appear and disappear within weeks ... and this is in America.
There must have been some great support from the public TV station, university, commercial ventures (state farm the whole time?) etc etc and the public to see it still going strong.
And funny to see him onscreen as a 'young' guy in the first episodes

I do believe that state farm has been with him the whole way for the last 30 some odd years.

Originally Posted by pmcgee

{{ PS - anyone watched the early episodes of 'Time Team' ... }} { Baldrick + Anorak = }

I can't watch Time Team without thinking it really is an elaborate cover so that he can dig up a turnip of his very own.





I have lots of love for Roy. I think I have watched all the stuff that he has online at least twice. Here are some links to the two main places where you can watch his videos online.

Woodwright's Shop with Roy UnderHill | PBS
and
The Woodwrights Shop | Watch Online | PBS Video

and a couple of odd ball Roy videos that give you an insight to Roy's Origin Story.

20th Anniversary Show

Have Broad Axe will travel

And for those of you that need a grain salt with a of helping Christopher Schwarz here are some videos with a side dish of Roy.

The Tiny tool kit

Hand Plane Essentials

English Layout Square

Two Screws for You

The Anarchist's Tools Chest

And the last is probably most apropriate to the disccussion

Sawing Secrets


I truly believe that that even if we aren't on the same page all the time woodworkers and other artisans are reading and writing the same book. And here in the hand tool section of this forum we are all on the same chapter, some will find heroes where others will find villains but we all enjoy the story.

-Josh

PS. Chippy, mate, wanna beer? It's too darn hot, I'm getting a beer, anyone else? ...