Thread: Yet another plane question...

Record developed this concept for their SS planes. Later Clifton adopted the design as well.

The idea was to save time and not need to remove the entire chipbreaker when sharpening. However, this does not work if you need to position the chipbreaker close to the edge for controlling tearout. I have one of these and epoxied them together!

Regards from Perth

Derek

Ah, I see. Makes sense.

Thanks Derek.

I guess if it was a great idea it would have become the norm. Those two planes must have been purchased around the same time when that idea was in play.

* where SS = Stay Set design, not Schutzstaffel.

You either love the SS cap-iron or hate it, I think.

I reckon it's up there with the dumbest ideas toolmakers have come up with to claim some advantage over the opposition. The very name is misleading. It doesn't "stay set" and cannot. Given the backlash in the adjuster mechanism, there is no way you are going to have the same set when you replace the blade, it will always need checking & adjusting after replacement.

The other "advantage" claimed, that it makes sharpening quicker because the end just slips off, well, the time saved in loosening the cap-iron screw might add up to an hour of time saved (in a lifetime, if you sharpen daily!).

I've not seen one yet that had the front piece properly contoured, they were all too blunt to work properly. I guess that's easy enough to remedy with a few minutes of filing & polishing, but because the only pressure on the end comes from the lever-cap (you don't have any additional pressure from the screw), chips get under the thing more easily, so it still won't work all that well when the chips are down (pun intended).

And as a final insult, the loose piece just begs to be lost - I've seen more than one old SS cap-iron with a missing toe-piece (they don't work at all, in that case).

You may have gotten the impression I am not a fan of the SS cap-iron.

You're right!

Cheers,

Probably easy to date those planes.

Sounds like that bright idea might have been around briefly.

If they clean up okay, I'll find some chipbreakers for them.

Originally Posted by scottbr

Probably easy to date those planes.

Sounds like that bright idea might have been around briefly.

If they clean up okay, I'll find some chipbreakers for them.

Nope Scott, not much help with dating, I'm afraid. The SS lasted for quite a while, starting in the early 1930s according to this site & lasting until at least the early 60s afaik, but don't know when they eventually dropped them. Which is why there are plenty around.

Like I said, you either love them or hate them & obviously enough loved 'em to keep Record churning them out. I'd advise sticking with what you have for the time being and use them a while, you may fall in love with them or you may not. There are plenty of perfectly normal folks who get along with SS cap-irons just fine. A couple of cantankerous old blokes don't, but don't let that influence your opinion, always best to decide for yourself, I say

And to demonstrate that there's no end to foolishness, Clifton "borrowed" the idea for their (now absurdly expensive) Bailey type bench planes. I had a Clifton #4 and that's what put me off the SS cap-iron completely. It was not well-made, and to get the business end straight across the end of the blade, I had to skew the body of the CI. I ended up chucking the darned thing & making a new SS (Stainles Steel ) cap-iron in the classic Stanley style.

Interesting how one changes one's tune over time! I just looked up the thread where I had a moan about my Clifton cap-iron - it was almost 20 years ago. Since that time, both Derek & I have done a 180 on cap-irons after discovering that they do indeed have a BIG role in turning shavings & controlling tear-out! I wish I hadn't been so adamant in showing my ignorance at the time, but I have publicly recanted many times since...

The other thing I hadn't fully grasped at that time was that the distance between the leading edge of the cap-iron and the adjuster slot on a Bailey type plane is quite critical. That was my first attempt at making a Stanley/Bailey type cap-iron and I didn't get that quite right. It meant I had to have the thumbwheel wound back to the end of its stud to get the blade into operation mode. It took me quite a while to figure it out - the difference was only ~2mm, but it made a huge difference to function. After making a few more cap-irons & taking the time to study more closely just how things operate, I eventually figured it out....

Live & learn (& be quick to admit when you're wrong!)
cheers,
Ian

Originally Posted by Fergiz01

* where SS = Stay Set design, not Schutzstaffel.

The use of SS is just yet more proof that the English still respect the Germans more than the French!!

Originally Posted by scottbr

Probably easy to date those planes.

Sounds like that bright idea might have been around briefly.

If they clean up okay, I'll find some chipbreakers for them.

You can use the two piece cap and clean up the front and do whatever is needed to make it work right. I had a few, and as others have mentioned here, just wished that the cap iron was one piece. The idea is novel, but I think it's a fix for something that a lot of users don't have - trouble getting the cap iron on and off.

I found them more likely to let shavings through by a good bit, which is a far bigger problem and sold mine, but they're usable. If you have a plane with the cap iron set back so that it's not breaking chips (like rough work) then it may not matter.

As a device, I think it's a perceived value thing - if you're competing with stanley, you need a differentiator. Like the two-piece lever cap on millers falls planes. If the differentiator doesn't really offer an improvement, the next best thing is a perceived improvement.

On the UK forum, there's quite a bit of discussion about tuning the fit of the SS two part cap iron to get them to clamp tight against the blade, but some attachment to them there, I think partly because it's a uniquely English thing.

Originally Posted by IanW

….
Interesting how one changes one's tune over time! I just looked up the thread where I had a moan about my Clifton cap-iron - it was almost 20 years ago. Since that time, both Derek & I have done a 180 on cap-irons after discovering that they do indeed have a BIG role in turning shavings & controlling tear-out! I wish I hadn't been so adamant in showing my ignorance at the time, but I have publicly recanted many times since...

….

Interesting Ian … that old thread. I was commenting about the Kawai and Kato chipbreaker research. That was 2005, and our discussions about it began in earnest in 2012. And I was right about the chipbreaker’s function to redirect shavings! How little we understood back then.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Without Bill and Steve, we'd have never seen the pictures or the video.

But I would've figured it out at the same time (about a month before the video was known) and been just as obnoxious. I miscalculated thinking that the combination of doing and the video would be undeniable. I actually thought it would've been undeniable without the video and only this week saw that the article was edited to imply that the hand tool info was based on the video (it isn't). The video is a good hook.

I still don't think the whole method as a means of tearout reduction will survive unless someone is constantly beating the drum about it, but that's OK. It's just a sign that nobody is doing that much planing.

Hi Scott. Did you also pick up the Stanley #112 scraper plane?

Originally Posted by Mountain Ash

Hi Scott. Did you also pick up the Stanley #112 scraper plane?

Yes. And the rabbett 78.

It's a long story, but they were all given to me on the weekend by the widow of a bloke who was very kind to me as a kid. She likes the sound of the shed I've set up for locals to come and use.

I can't see myself ever having need of a #8 plane and I have a few #5s, but I like getting old planes up and running again. They're such nice things - nice also to use tools that someone you knew used to own. Most of my other planes were given to me by my favourite uncle.

The scraper plane is one I will use. I had been keeping an eye out for one. I'll clean it up and do the blade - it's 5mm out of square - and then get some guidance on how to best use it. Not sure what angle the blade needs to be?

Done.
Here are those planes I was given last weekend.
The scraper and the Record ones with the two piece chip breakers.
The #5 and #8 both plane beautifully.
It's unlikely I will use the #8 - it's a big thing. We'll see.
(Goodness knows why my photos have started putting themselves on their side again.)

Planes done 2.jpg Planes done.jpg

Nice Scott. I stood your pics up for you so we can appreciate them fully.

If you are young & fit, the #08 does make a very fine jointer. I'm not as strong or fit as I once was, so I'm only man enough for a #7 these days. It's a plane that sees a LOT of use in my shed.....

Cheers,