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  1. #1
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    Default Plane selection and setup for Australian woods

    So now that I have a proper workbench I've been enjoying using my hand planes a lot more. But I'm still really perplexed as to which plane to reach for at times.

    My workbench is pine so I've been using my old Stanley #4 to tidy that up and got on okay (some issues but more plane setup than anything). But when I've worked with Jarrah I've had a hell of a time with tear out. Switched over to a Veritas low angle Jack and had the same problem just slightly minimised. Is this likely to be a setup issue with the plane or just the wrong plane for the job?

    I tried my HNT Gordon A55 smoother this morning (bit gun shy with it to be honest, it's been in a box for a year) and was quite surprised at the finish it left. Is the higher blade angle more appropriate for Jarrah and other Australian hardwoods? Or is it very dependent on timber? I remember there being a big discussion around chip breaker setting vs bed angle a while back but can't find it now. Add in bevel up/down, toothed blades etc and you have one very confused man.

    I feel like a lot of my problems could be to do with sharpness and plane setup but struggle to figure out where I'm going wrong. Considering doing the Perth Wood School courses on sharpening and hand planes but thought I'd ask here first.


    Available tools are below, thought it might help to know what I'm working with.

    * Stanley #4, #5, #6
    * Veritas Low Angle Jack with PM-V11 and A2 blades
    * Lie Nielsen Low Angle Block Plane
    * HNT Gordon A55 Smoother with TS blade

    The only one of those that I feel like I can setup easily is the A55, found that a joy to use so far but the others less so. At the point now where I feel like I need some instruction from someone who knows what they're doing. Alternatively if anyone has any good reading material around plane setup and use then I'm all ears. My sharpening is less of a problem, probably more laziness than anything.

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  3. #2
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    Settle in for a dizzy ride, bueller, this topic generates more discussion than sharpening techniques!

    I've been using hand planes for 60 years and there is still a lot I'm not sure about, but here is my opinion, in brief, for what it's worth.

    First up, sharp trumps all. Make sure your blades are as sharp as you can make them - it's almost a never-ending quest, you get more efficient & better results the more you do it.

    Controlling tear-out has a lot to do with cutting angle. In general high cutting angles work well with hard, chippy woods, which is why your HNT is working for you on the Jarrah. A bed angle of 60 deg is about as high as you can practically go with a "cutting" blade, after that you are essentially scraping (which is sometimes the only recourse, and one of the beauties of HNT's planes is you can simply reverse the blade & you have a scraper.) You can mimic the high cutting angles of your Gordon plane with a bevel-up plane by using a steep sharpening bevel. However, be prepared to work a lot harder, because you are pushing a much "blunter" edge into your work. (By "blunt" I am simply referring to acuteness of the bevel angle, not how perfectly the angles meet.) A 60 degree blade with a typical 25-30 degree sharpening bevel is presenting the same edge angle to the wood as a 45 degree blade, but it is rotated "upwards", and also requires more effort to push, but not as much as a bevel-up plane mimicking the same cutting angle. On a BU plane, with a bed angle of say, 20 degrees, you need a 40 degree bevel on the blade to give a 60 degree cutting angle. It starts to become a bit absurd.

    High cutting angles have a trade-off in that blades dull faster, which is where the chipbreaker/cap-iron on a standard angle comes to our rescue. The last decade has seen the return of the 'chipbreaker' on common old 'standard' pitch, bevel-down planes as the means to control tear out, without sacrificing ease of cut. It does take some fussing to get maximum performance from a cap-iron. It must fit perfectly, if there is the merest gap, shavings will quickly find their way under the cap-iron & performance will fall off alarmingly. The angle the top surface of the cap-iron meets the blade back is also important. To mimic the effect of a 60 deg blade, the cap iron must meet at an angle of at least 15 degrees (45 +15 = 60), but most advocate an angle of around 45-50 degrees. So you are turning your 45 degree blade into a 90 degree scraper. What's happening, in simplistic terms is that while you are still cutting the wood with a standard pitch blade, the shaving travels a very short distance before it gets rolled up by the cap iron (it's very similar to what a card scraper with a burr does).

    There is much debate about the amount of setback required, it does need to be pretty close, but I don't get very good results with anything closer than 0.4mm for general work. We were taught at school to set it back1/32nd of an inch (~0.8 mm), and this works fine in softer, straight-grained woods; I can plane Hoop pine happily all day with a cap-iron set at 0.6-0.8mm, but I would set it finer to tackle Ring Gidgee!

    Most folks who get good results from close-set cap-irons will admit it takes a bit of fiddling & perseverance to get it to work for you. I also maintain that it doesn't always work in some of our truly recalcitrant woods. I have planes with pitches from 45 to 60 degrees, with & without cap-irons (my 60 degree planes don't have cap-irons as I don't believe they confer any benefits on such high angle blades). I can usually predict which plane will give the best result on a piece of wood after a few swipes with one or another, but certainly not always - sometimes I'm surprised when a plane I didn't think would work well turns out to be the champ on that particular piece of wood.

    And I'm not ashamed to turn to my scraping plane on occasion - there is just about nothing short of cast-iron it won't put a decent surface on.

    But I think we will find mileages vary greatly, on this topic.....

    Cheers
    IW

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post

    Controlling tear-out has a lot to do with cutting angle. In general high cutting angles work well with hard, chippy woods, which is why your HNT is working for you on the Jarrah. The bed angle of 60 deg is about as high as you can practically go with a "cutting" blade, after that you are essentially scraping (which is sometimes the only recourse, and one of the beauties of HNT's planes is you can simply reverse the blade & you have a scraper.)
    Ah that explains why the shavings from the HNT were so scraper like. Had to clear out the mouth of the plane a couple of times due to it clogging up.



    Thank you so much for the detailed write up, I'm going to have to read it several times to take it all in! Sounds like I need to work on my chip breaker setting with the #4, probably need to get my eyes checked as well [emoji1]

    Might need to make a sharpening station, probably don't use my stones nearly as often as I should due to setup time.

  5. #4
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    What Ian said, essentially. You didn’t mention if your planes had been fettled, so there’s something else to check.

    There are three other roads you can travel down; firstly get another blade for your LA jack with a 50 degree bevel, or regrind one of your existing blades. That turns it into a very high (62 deg) pitched plane.

    Secondly, put a 5 or 10 degree back bevel onto an existing blade for your 4, again this has the effect of increasing the pitch to 50 or 55 degrees.

    Or, go down the scraper route. You can pick up decent Stanley/Record 80’s quite easily, or search harder and find a Stanley 112. Veritas, Lie Neilson and Luban all make new versions of these.

    When I come across highly figured cranky grained aussie hardwoods I usually hit it first with a sharp back-bevelled 4 or 4-1/2 smoother; if I’m still getting tearout I pull out one of the scrapers. But scrapers also need to be correctly sharpened; my method is to use a thin 1000 grit diamond stone held in a Veritas file holder to polish the bevel before burnishing the slightest hook on it. A well set up 112 can take gossamer thin shavings and leave a truly stunning surface behind it.
    Nothing succeeds like a budgie without a beak.

  6. #5
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    Hi Bueller,

    Not sure what you are using, but I have found there to be a big difference between reclaimed and new jarrah. I use a lot of reclaimed jarrah and it is very brittle and can be a nightmare to plane to a nice finish. In these cases I am not above getting it close with my hand plane using the cap iron, and then finishing with some hand sanding. New jarrah can be a delight to plane - so there you go.

    Thanks,
    Zac.

  7. #6
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    Hi Bueller. My experience relates more to working with recycled messmate but for what it's worth I find blade sharpness to be the big difference for me. A combination of waterstones (800, 1200 and 6000) and finishing with honing compound on leather strop (Veritas green) is my secret. That and being willing to touch up as you go. Interestingly, at least to me, one of my current jobs required me to joint one face of 14 lineal meteres of 120 x 38 old messmate by hand and I used my shop made wooden jack plane with a very old tapered plane blade to great effect. I think the thickness of the blade really helps. Is your blade in the HNT thicker than standard ?

  8. #7
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    Yeah using old reclaimed Jarrah, 2 bucks a board foot is hard to beat. Actually have a Lie Nielsen Scraper plane I bought off a member here but still figuring out the eccentricities of setting it up, seems to dig in a bit on the edges of the blade.

    And now that I think about it I've fettled my #4 but not looked at the Veritas LAJ. Had assumed the sole wouldn't need lapping but probably should check.

    The HNT A55 should have a standard blade in it, I bought it in the group buy that was run here and I'm pretty sure they were bog standard models IIRC.

  9. #8
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    And my current sharpening setup is a set of Shapton Pro stones in 1000, 5000 and 12000 grit with a DMT diamond plate to keep them all flat when needed.

  10. #9
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    Apr 2001
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    Perth
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bueller View Post
    So now that I have a proper workbench I've been enjoying using my hand planes a lot more. But I'm still really perplexed as to which plane to reach for at times.

    My workbench is pine so I've been using my old Stanley #4 to tidy that up and got on okay (some issues but more plane setup than anything). But when I've worked with Jarrah I've had a hell of a time with tear out. Switched over to a Veritas low angle Jack and had the same problem just slightly minimised. Is this likely to be a setup issue with the plane or just the wrong plane for the job?

    I tried my HNT Gordon A55 smoother this morning (bit gun shy with it to be honest, it's been in a box for a year) and was quite surprised at the finish it left. Is the higher blade angle more appropriate for Jarrah and other Australian hardwoods? Or is it very dependent on timber? I remember there being a big discussion around chip breaker setting vs bed angle a while back but can't find it now. Add in bevel up/down, toothed blades etc and you have one very confused man.

    I feel like a lot of my problems could be to do with sharpness and plane setup but struggle to figure out where I'm going wrong. Considering doing the Perth Wood School courses on sharpening and hand planes but thought I'd ask here first.


    Available tools are below, thought it might help to know what I'm working with.

    * Stanley #4, #5, #6
    * Veritas Low Angle Jack with PM-V11 and A2 blades
    * Lie Nielsen Low Angle Block Plane
    * HNT Gordon A55 Smoother with TS blade

    The only one of those that I feel like I can setup easily is the A55, found that a joy to use so far but the others less so. At the point now where I feel like I need some instruction from someone who knows what they're doing. Alternatively if anyone has any good reading material around plane setup and use then I'm all ears. My sharpening is less of a problem, probably more laziness than anything.
    Hi Bueller

    You are welcome to bring your planes over to my workshop on the weekend. I'm busy on a build, and cannot take the time to get to you, but I will happily make time to show you how to set up each plane and use it to its optimum.

    The Stanley's are quite capable of planing the most wicked interlocked timber, if you understand how to set up the chipbreaker. The A55 should give a good result with a 55 degree cutting angle (although I imagine the basic 60 degree smoother I have is likely to be better in this regard.

    I can show you how to create the correct high angle-plus-camber blade for the LA Jack.

    Let me know.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by derekcohen View Post
    Hi Bueller

    You are welcome to bring your planes over to my workshop on the weekend. I'm busy on a build, and cannot take the time to get to you, but I will happily make time to show you how to set up each plane and use it to its optimum.

    The Stanley's are quite capable of planing the most wicked interlocked timber, if you understand how to set up the chipbreaker. The A55 should give a good result with a 55 degree cutting angle (although I imagine the basic 60 degree smoother I have is likely to be better in this regard.

    I can show you how to create the correct high angle-plus-camber blade for the LA Jack.

    Let me know.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    That is so kind of you to offer Derek, I would love that. PM incoming!

  12. #11
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    Apr 2006
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    Hobart
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    Settle in for a dizzy ride, bueller, this topic generates more discussion than sharpening techniques!

    I've been using hand planes for 60 years and there is still a lot I'm not sure about, but here is my opinion, in brief, for what it's worth.

    First up, sharp trumps all. Make sure your blades are as sharp as you can make them - it's almost a never-ending quest, you get more efficient & better results the more you do it.
    .........
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Ash View Post
    ..... I find blade sharpness to be the big difference for me. A combination of waterstones (800, 1200 and 6000) and finishing with honing compound on leather strop (Veritas green) is my secret. That and being willing to touch up as you go. .....
    Hi Bueller

    Besides the multiplicity of sharpening techniques, you will find even the concept of sharpness to be elusive.

    You think that you know what a sharp blade is like, then something happens and you have an epithany, a halleluja moment, and realise that there is a sharpness level beyond what you thought was possible, or meaningful. I now like to think of sharpness as a series of plateaux, and when you are ready then you will move to the next. Possibly an endless quest.

    Recently I was in Japan and had a lesson from a professional knife sharpener - he had completed a multi-year apprenticeship in blade sharpening, a quite separate craft than chisel smithing or knife making or blade forging. He talked about the blade "gliding through" what was being cut; it did! There is always another tier.

    He called himself a knife sharpener. "Sword sharpener is a little pretentious, and not so many swords to sharpen..." He aslo sharpened blades for chisels, planes, gouges, scissors, bonsai trimmers, StarWars and kungfu weapons, etc.


    Fair Winds

    Graeme

  13. #12
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    Apr 2001
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    Perth
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    Dan, PM reply sent.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  14. #13
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    Hi Dan and Derek,

    I don't want to be intrusive, but is there a chance I could tag along? I'd relish the opportunity to be a fly on the wall here.

    Let me know,

    Thanks,
    Zac.

  15. #14
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    Hi Zac, you are most welcome. We meet at my workshop (at my house) at 10:30 a.m. this Saturday. Email me if you can join us, and need my address.

    Cheers

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  16. #15
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    Thanks Derek, email sent.

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