Thread: PM 10V tool steel in low angle jack

cant help with anything but maybe an idea with the blade you used the ruler trick - can you get rid of the back bevel by sharpening the bevel side prob less steel to remove (or even use a grinder to get a hollow bevel)

right on qwertyu. I was thinking of grinding the bevel side to take care of it. It'll still be a fair bit of material, but a lot less than tryna flatten the back. Good call.
Unfortunately I don't have a grinder. Well, maybe that's fortunate actually... I wanted to learn the discipline by hand first, so that if I ever do get a mechanical grinder with a CBN, two things will happen: 1. I'll know what to do. 2. I will properly appreciate the time it saves!

Pictures being a 1000 words, here's a few.

plane iron back.jpeg

microbevel.jpeg

shooting board.jpeg

result.jpeg

Hi Roger

I do not know what steel is in PM-V10. I have had many chats over the years with David Eckert (Henry is his young son) about tools, and he reckons that it is similar to Veritas' PM-V11. I think that he came up with the name to suggest this. If it were PM10V steel (similar name), then the steel would be highly abrasion-resistant ..

10V was an evolution of previous 4-5% vanadium steels. The development of powder metallurgy technology allowed an increase in vanadium content ...

In any event, with hard steels, I have always recommended either hollow grinding or secondary micro bevels. For BU planes, doing both.

The rule I came up with many years ago is "Grind at 25 degrees and add a secondary micro bevel at the desired angle on that". For Australian Eucalypts, the secondary bevel angle is generally 50 degrees. If you wish to camber the blade to prevent tracks, then this approach is necessary - you will not camber a 50 degree single bevel.

Regards from Perth

Derek

The look of the end grain suggests that the edge has chipped badly. Do you have a magnifying glass? You'll need get past that damage and it will help to have one of those. Look up Unicorn sharpening to mitigate edge failure.

I have a few 10V woodturning chisels. Here's a link with info on the steel and how to sharpen Cindy Drozda, Tool Steel

Hi Neil

I do not believe that the steel used by the Henry Eckert plane is 10V. My own tests with 10V indicate that it is best left for turning chisels. It would not work well for plane blades. The Eckert plane steel is something else.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Actually, I think it might well be the 10V (which I think is also known as A11). On their website, they're labelling it as "Powdered Metallurgy PM-10V".

I reckon I'm not getting sharp because I'm using a pretty average King 4000 waterstone, which is pretty soft.

According to the page dai sensai shared (thank you), harder ceramic stones are recommended. I've got a nice Chosera 800 and Morihei 4000 that I usually reserve for knife sharpening. Tomorrow, I'll have a crack at getting a keener edge with those. I'll grind the micro bevel with 1000 grit diamond, then hit it with the hard ceramic waterstones, and see if that gets me there.

The look of the end grain suggests that the edge has chipped badly.

Yep, it was chipped actually, straight out of the packet. I thought I ground my way past it, but mustn't have gone far enough. I'll get my hands on a magnifying glass. Any old run of the mill jobby, or does it need to be something special?

Also, thanks Derek for the info on cambering the BU plane irons. I'd read it a few months ago, and planning to come back to it. First though, I must get the gist of standard regular sharpening, otherwise it will surely be a disaster for me. One step at a time!

Thanks everyone!

A jewelers magnifying glass should be ok. These fancy powdered metal cutters are very popular nowadays, but as you can see they fail by fracturing and do so rather quickly. In addition, they take a lot of (expensive) gear and time to sharpen. I would contact the tool dealer and ask them how they should be sharpened to get a usable plane. I will also mention again to research unicorn profiling the edge to see if you can get better performance.

Thanks Raffo. Manufacturer recommends ceramic water stones in 1000, 4000, 8000. There advice here
Henry Eckert Sharpening Instructions – Henry Eckert Toolworks

Like I mentioned earlier, I found the diamond plate cut okay, but I couldn’t get a good enough polish from my higher grit stone. I think because it’s a cheap softie.

will check out unicorn at some point, but I do wanna get this blade sharp first, and give it a chance! Personally I find it easy to get stuck going down rabbit holes and chasing the perfect process. I try to avoid that because I’d rather spend my time making stuff, and I also think we often give up to early, and with a bit I’d persistence can often work it out.

I’ll report back when I get this thing sharp!

Im gonna grab one of those LED magnifying lamps with glass lens that are popular with electronics people. I reckon that’ll be handy to have in the shop. Lotta people seem to like Optivisor too, but I reckon that’s more appropriate for continued use, like model makers or soldering tiny things all day.

I have no experience of the Eckert blades but your story does remind me of my first experience with a PM-V11 blade. Up to that point I'd been an oilstone sharpener (for something like 40 years), but using my normal progression of finishing with a soft-white followed by hard white Arkansas stones took forever & just would not get me the sort of edge I wanted. I was on the point of chucking the darned thing in a drawer & forgetting about it, but after casting about for advice, I substituted a fine diamond and a decent quality 8,000 water stone for the honing steps. Bingo! I got 'proper sharp' edges. It still takes more effort than it takes to get my Hock (O1) blades job-ready, but it's quite acceptable. I also experienced quite noticeable chipping on that first PM blade initially, but after a few sharpenings it settled down. It does seem more brittle and prone to microchipping in highly siliceous woods, but not to the extent of A2. The PM blade will go on cutting long after an O1 blade has given up, but the surface quality does deteriorate.

Blade steels & sharpening are subjects that can generate more text than any other topic in woodworking and unfortunately, more conflicting advice than any other topic too! I've spent at least 60 years at sharpening, slowly evolving methods that work for me but I'd be very loathe to suggest they are world's best practice. You get better at it but also become more demanding, too, so it's a sort of "arms race".

FWIW I've been down the road of chasing ever harder blade steels for my planes, looking for the holy grail of a blade that keeps its edge forever but doesn't need to be sent out for sharpening (like the diamond knives on the microtomes we used in the lab). My first big revelation was an 'after-market' HSS blade, made by Titan late in their day & sold by Stanley for a few years after they bough them out - it was as easy to sharpen as the original blade in my plane & lasted twice as long. That whetted my appetite & I was off on the hunt. I got a cryogenically-treated blade from Academy that is as hard as the proverbial hobs of hell & a beast to sharpen (& doesn't stay that way sufficiently longer to justify all the effort!), several A2 blades, & finally PM-V11 arrived on teh scene.

What I 'discovered' is that there are always compromises, you just can't have it all, it seems. For everyday work with what I call "sensible" cabinet woods, it's hard to beat good O1 blades like the Hocks - a doddle to sharpen and they hold their edge plenty long enough for practical purposes. But when working with gidgee or she-oak or other woods that are particularly rough on cutting edges, the PM blades are my choice because they will go on cutting much, much longer than O1 or A2. However, as noted, the edge fails with far more microchiping than you get with O1 so even though it's still cutting reasonably freely, the surface quality deteriorates - it's tolerable, depending what it's for, but far from 'polish-ready'.

I predict your sharpening (& blade-steels) journey will continue for a very long time; this is just the first bump in the road, but with persistence you'll figure out sharpening methods & routines that get the job done efficiently, & which blades are best suited to the various woods you work with. It can be frustrating, but also part of the fun if you can keep it all in perspective - that much I am certain about.....

Cheers,

Thanks so much, Ian. That’s very encouraging. And your experience confirms I’m on the right track. I’ve been eyeing off a good quality 8000 stone for a while, and I’m pretty sure changing up stones is gonna get me there.

I remember going through something similar when learning to sharpen knives. People talk about ‘feedback’ from the stone. A stone with good feedback means you can feel and hear when you’re grinding the bevel correctly. Prior to having quality stones, it was quite frustrating to be following the steps, but not getting the expected results. After a few sharpening sessions on the new stones, everything make much more sense, it’s faster, and I can achieve the results I want without getting frustrated.

I’d previously thought to avoid using hard plane irons on these stones, because my old stones seemed to be made of some kind of cheese, and would never stand up to that. Now that I have more confidence in the new stones, and I’ve also learned the corrected amount of pressure to apply (e.g. not very much at all!), I’m comfortable to use those for the plane irons and chisels.

I’ll now add an 8000, and I reckon that’ll fill the gap nicely. Green compound on a strop has been great for softer steels, but wasn’t cutting it as a finishing step on the PM-10V iron. Glad to hear 8000 solved this for you.

For everyday work with what I call "sensible" cabinet woods, it's hard to beat good O1 blades like the Hocks

Curious, what do you consider ‘sensible’ cabinet woods?
I’m currently working with Vic Ash, Blackwood, and White Mahogany. Vic Ash seems to be pretty middle-of-the-road in terms of density and hardness. I like working with it. Blackwood I have less experience with, but anticipate it’s pretty easy to work with, probably easier on tools than Vic Ash. The White Mahog, well, I haven’t cut a board yet, but wow it’s heavy, heavy stuff. I’m using it for the current project that is about to hit the bench. Should be fun!

Originally Posted by rogerwilco

...... I’d previously thought to avoid using hard plane irons on these stones, because my old stones seemed to be made of some kind of cheese, and would never stand up to that....

The water stones nowadays are a different breed from the first stones I tried back in the late 70s/early 80s when Japanese tools were becoming very popular amongst the amateur set. The first stone I tried did cut like fury as claimed, but was quite impractical imo; it had to be flattened after every use & it was impossible to freehand narrow blades without them digging in & gouging great grooves in the surface. The stone I bought to cope with the PM-V11 blade (an Ohishi 2,000/8,000 combination) was much harder. It still needed fairly constant attention, but more like weekly rather than after every blade!

As someone lucky enough to spend most of my time in the shed now, I would spend more time sharpening than most so it is not surprising that after 7 years of constant use the Ohishi was at the end of its life & needing replacement. The 2,000 side was hardly touched, but there was barely a mm left of the 8000 material & it seemed to get softer & softer the further in I went. My current 8,000 stone is a Shapstone pro (which Derek advised me to try). I'm even happier with it, it is quite a bit harder than the Ohishi, and though it maybe doesn't cut quite as fast, it is still pretty fast & best of all, does not need anywhere near as much attention as the Ohishi required. In fact, I have been using it for about 2 months & have yet to flatten it. I try to always work the whole surface to get as even wear as I can & edges coming off the diamond plate are still contacting the full width on the Shapstone, so it hasn't dished noticeably yet. Thankyou Derek, I'm a happy camper.

Originally Posted by rogerwilco

...... Curious, what do you consider ‘sensible’ cabinet woods?...

Woods like Qld Maple! It has to be one of the best there is, saws, planes & chisels easily - even highly figured stuff is usally easy to plane, with little tear-out. And easy to finish - takes French polish like a dream, despite its somewhat open grain.

When I wore a lad in Nth Qld., essentially "softwoods" meant mostly rainforest species like maple & cedar, while "hardwood" meant eucalypts. You can see why I was confused when I encountered these terms in their more usual usage of conifers (gymnosperms) vs flowering trees (angiosperms). I first became a truly serious wood-butcher in Canada where as well as a bewildering array of softwoods, I met hardwoods like cherry & walnut, soft maples & poplar, all of which have little silica & are a joy to work with hand tools.

Of the woods you mentioned, I have a fair amount of experience with "Vic ash" & blackwood, but zero experience of white mahogany (unless I've used it unknowingly as a bit of reclaimed pallet wood). Good blackwood can be every bit as nice to work with as black walnut (in fact one of its early vernacular names was "Australian walnut") and most of the Vic ash type wood I've used was within my tolerance range for hand-working (jarrah is my yardstick, it's just this side of the 'hand-workable' line imo ).

The denser eucalypts & corymbias are another matter. Not only are they harder, they generally contain a goodly amount of silica, and planing glass is not something any steel enjoys. In addition, virtually all of the common species round here have a tendency to "rowed" grain which usually makes planing the radial surface a real challenge! As far as I'm concerned, these woods make excellent work-benches or similar, but are not my cup of tea for fine cabinetry. I won't deny some can look very spiffy when finally tigered into shape & finished nicely, but I'm too old & feeble to work such woods with hand tools. Perhaps even more importantly, their density makes for very heavy, awkward furniture unless you fine down dimensions considerably.

There are even harder woods like gidgee & she-oak that I hand-work for small items like saw handles & for stuffing infills, for e.g., but there's less total effort expended working small pieces, & though it's often far from easy, the results seem worth it. Fine-fitting she-oak infill to a curved plane body can cause a few expletives at times - especially when it all goes to hell in a handbasket & I have to scrap a morning's work & start over. It has happened more than once....

That may give you some idea of where I'm coming from & how I view various woods.....

Ian

Amazing! Literally 5 minutes before I read this, I ordered a Shapton Pro 8000 after coming to the conclusion it is the right stone to complete my setup

Thanks for the rundown on the woods you like to work. I can totally see why blackwood was/is known as Aussie Walnut. I really like it. We have a fair bit of joinery in blackwood - a mix of solid pieces and veneered cabinets. It's glorious stuff.

I absolutely agree about the bulk and heft of some of the denser eucalypts being a bit problematic for 'fine' furniture. A lot of modern furniture that I see around the place seems way too chunky to me. Like, somehow bigger is better. Personally I don't like that aesthetic, so in some ways, working with the heavier stuff is a constraint that I welcome. I've mostly been using Vic Ash because it's so accessible and cheap. I'm using it to learn... Mistakes don't hurt at all, because it's $9/lm for 140x35 boards. Besides, when Vic Ash is treated well, I think it's beautiful. Those honey tones play quite nice with semi matt clear finish like Mirocat or Osmo. I enjoy the challenge of taking what is basically a construction material, and figuring out how the get the most out it. With a bit of thought and planning during selection and milling, it can come up every bit as good as something 3-4 times the price. No doubt this is a good skill to be developing - after working this way for only a little while, I look at wood quite differently than before.

Thanks again!