Thread: PMV11 / Stanley No 4 ????????

Matt

I am interested to see what the experts come up with on this one.

Regards
Paul

PS: Is the blade the wrong way in the second pic (bevel up) or is that to illustrate the lack of clearance?

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Matt

I am interested to see what the experts come up with on this one.

Regards
Paul

PS: Is the blade the wrong way in the second pic (bevel up) or is that to illustrate the lack of clearance?

Paul,
There are expert’s on this forum [emoji6][emoji6][emoji6][emoji6][emoji6]
I will possibly get shot for that sly remark.

An I’m now full of self doubt

What your seeing is the Veritas Cap Iron on the blade.

Cheers Matt.

It is relevant to note that, while Veritas makes a slightly thicker-than-original blade, this should fit nearly all Stanley planes. "Nearly all" is simply because the sizes of the mouths vary among these planes.

It is important that the mouth is wide enough for clearing a shaving. In particular, when closing up the chipbreaker to control tearout, the chipbreaker itself will block the escapement. Fortunately, when the chipbreaker is closed up, a larger mouth does not have any effect (in the same way as when a plane has a high angled bed (such as 60 degrees).

The important issue, then, is to open the mouth. The question - from the front or back?

Well, if you open the back, and are able to pull the blade back enough to create the clearance, then you will be still be able to support a thinner blade (if you change it out). Alternately, if you open the front of the mouth a smidgeon (enough for clearance - trial and error), this may also work with a thinner blade - it really depends on the amount of movement that the front has.

My preference is to fie the front of the mouth as this also allows for fine tuning the mouth to be square to the sides of the body (as some are not).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks Derek,

Just the kind of information I was after,
I will put down the 9 inch grinder an proceed carefully with a small flat file,
On the front of the mouth,

Is thus plane Dentistry [emoji3064][emoji3064][emoji3064]???

Cheers Matt.

Hi Matt
you can move the frog on your plane back and forth to adjust the mouth opening.
How far is far enough can only be determined once the blade is inserted and the chip breaker set close to the cutting edge. Depending on the grinding angle you opt for, you should be able to move the frog far enough to create enough clearance to accommodate the thickness of he blade plus chip breaker.

My other comment relates to the front of the chipbreaker


I know I'm on the "wrong side of the ocean" but it looks to me that the leading edge needs quite a lot of work before it properly mates with the cutting iron.

Originally Posted by ian

Hi Matt
you can move the frog on your plane back and forth to adjust the mouth opening.
How far is far enough can only be determined once the blade is inserted and the chip breaker set close to the cutting edge. Depending on the grinding angle you opt for, you should be able to move the frog far enough to create enough clearance to accommodate the thickness of he blade plus chip breaker.

My other comment relates to the front of the chipbreaker


I know I'm on the "wrong side of the ocean" but it looks to me that the leading edge needs quite a lot of work before it properly mates with the cutting iron.

Hi Ian,
Hope these pics help,froM this side of the pond[emoji6]
First shot is as far back as I can take the frog,

Even in that shot I can just feel the ruler “click” over the body.
The next shot shows the frog retraced a little too much just to show the issue.


Cheers Matt.

OK, I'm no expert at anything, Matt, but here's my 2c:

Like Derek, I'm a little surprised you need to pull the frog back so far to get the blade through - Stanley mouths aren't normally what I'd describe as "fine", and although it looks like a lot when you hold the two blades side by side the Veritas blades are only about .02" (0.5mm) thicker than the originals. I doubt you'll get anywhere filing the back of the mouth, even with the frog pulled back as far as it will go, the bevel of the blade usually clears the bit of sole jutting out past the frog, unless you go for a very heavy set! So if you really can't get the blade through with the frog as far back as it can sensibly go, then I'd say you have no option but to attack the front of the mouth with a file. How wide a gap you go for is personal choice.

I have either LV or Hock blades in 4 Stanleys & 2 Records. None required extreme set-back of the frog, and I have never filed any mouths, except to tidy up minor nicks on a couple when I got them. The problem I have with after-market blades is the cap-iron screws are mostly too short for the thicker blades & only reach through enough to hold by about 3/4 turn. So when I loosen the screw to remove the cap-iron, I have to be careful it doesn't pop right out & throw itself into a pile of shavings or roll under the bench. But you've got the Veritas cap-iron as well, & I expect they would fit a screw of appropriate length, so you shouldn't have that problem.

Anyway, see what happens when you get to the point of fitting the blade for a test-drive......

Cheers,

I recently fitted a Veritas blade and cap iron to my number 3 and all I had to do was ease the frog back a smidge.

Saying that....

My 3 is a Type 14 and was made with a bit more care and attention to tolerances than your 4. The front edge of my plane's mouth is smooth whereas yours is still rough cast. Smoothing the casting in that area just to remove the roughness would probably be enough to give enough mouth opening. A few years ago I put a fairly thick Chinese HSS blade in another 3 and had no choice but to file the mouth for it to fit. I clamped a wooden 45 degree guide square to the mouth to do this; same principle as what Derek uses to trim the mitre edges on his mitred dovetail joints.

You may find that when you move the frog it might skew ever so slightly as it straddles the central guide rib with no danger of ever contacting it; so double check it is still square to the mouth before nipping up the screws.

I picked up a 2-3/8 Veritas iron a few weeks ago; I'm still trying to decide which plane to throw it in!

Originally Posted by IanW

even with the frog pulled back as far as it will go, the bevel of the blade usually clears the bit of sole jutting out past the frog, unless you go for a very heavy set!

and IanW -- don't be too modest your 2 cents worth is a bit more than it's face value

Well now ,I’m happily stumped.
Spent this morning lapping and sharping the blade,30 degree main bevel.
Yes ,PMV11 is a workout compared to good old Stanley iron, won’t need a gym membership this year.
So ,put the plane back together, fiddled a bit moving the frog back an forward.
No ,filling to the mouth and now I’m quite happily making shavings.
So ,with blade fitted the mouth is 0.40mm (0.16 in the oldies measurement[emoji6])
I suppose this is just one of those times when you walk away,an the next day it falls into place[emoji41][emoji41].

Also ,can someone confirm that with a Veritas PmV11 blade.?
You DO NOT flatten the back(it was lapped in the factory)

Thanks for all the help[emoji120][emoji120]

Cheers Matt.

Also ,can someone confirm that with a Veritas PmV11 blade.?
You DO NOT flatten the back(it was lapped in the factory)

I am assuming that you did not do any work to the plane after grinding the blade to 30 degrees, and it now fits? Curious .... all I can imagine is that there was an obstruction on the frog.

Lapping the blade?

Veritas make their blades flatter than you can. I have seen their machines in the factory and the lengths to which they go. If your blade is not flat, send it back. Any work you do on the back of a blade will only degrade it!

The bevels for a BD plane should be between 30 - 33 degrees. The easiest way to do this that I know is simply hollow grind on an 8" bench grinder, or similar. A half speed 8" bench grind with an 180 CBN wheel is sublime. The alternative is a 6" full speed bench grinder (similar circumference speed). These run coolish and you can grind close to, or even up to, the edge of the blade. Now there is very little steel to hone, and the honing process is Fast.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

I am assuming that you did not do any work to the plane after grinding the blade to 30 degrees, and it now fits? Curious .... all I can imagine is that there was an obstruction on the frog.

Lapping the blade?

Veritas make their blades flatter than you can. I have seen their machines in the factory and the lengths to which they go. If your blade is not flat, send it back. Any work you do on the back of a blade will only degrade it!

The bevels for a BD plane should be between 30 - 33 degrees. The easiest way to do this that I know is simply hollow grind on an 8" bench grinder, or similar. A half speed 8" bench grind with an 180 CBN wheel is sublime. The alternative is a 6" full speed bench grinder (similar circumference speed). These run coolish and you can grind close to, or even up to, the edge of the blade. Now there is very little steel to hone, and the honing process is Fast.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek.
No I have not attempted to flatten the back of the blade,because I was fairly certain I had read hear,that they were very flat from the factory.
Also the blade was flat!

With regards the plane body an frog I had done know further work,an they were also clean,
All that I can assume is that I just hadn’t played with it enough.

Cheers Matt.

Happy result then!

Originally Posted by Chief Tiff

Happy result then!

I’m a happy camper tonight.

Cheers Matt.