Thread: Product Review - Luban Chip Breaker

Thanking you for this post again, i was picking up a vice from carbatech today online and added the veritas chip breaker / lever cap and remembered McJing so removed it. I picked up a no 4 cap and some card scrapers from them. looking forward to it and will write a post bout my n04 restoration im doing at the moment.


I have an Australian carter no7 jointing plane. Do you know if the McJing no7 for will work for a Carter as a Stanely chip breaker / lever cap?. i assume it would and ill perform some tests with the Carter shortly to verify as its out of stock online anyway.

Cheers,
Nathan

Originally Posted by delbs

Thanking you for this post again, i was picking up a vice from carbatech today online and added the veritas chip breaker / lever cap and remembered McJing so removed it. I picked up a no 4 cap and some card scrapers from them. looking forward to it and will write a post bout my n04 restoration im doing at the moment.


I have an Australian carter no7 jointing plane. Do you know if the McJing no7 for will work for a Carter as a Stanely chip breaker / lever cap?. i assume it would and ill perform some tests with the Carter shortly to verify as its out of stock online anyway.

Cheers,
Nathan

I don't have a Carter #7 but I do have a Bailey Stanley #7 and I gave it a try with the 60mm chip breaker.
As you can see from the first photo the slot is slight further away from the edge of the chip breaker than the original one.
20201025_124131 (480x640).jpg
But not so much that it won't fit. What I had to do was to move the frog back, with adjuster screw at the bottom.
20201025_133259 (480x640).jpg
and then fine tune the blade protrusion with the thumb adjuster nut, it seems to be fine.
20201025_132423 (480x640).jpg20201025_133245.jpg

Presuming that slot in the cap iron is nice and tight, meaning little backlash.

Do we get to see the cap iron when it's really working?
You may need to adjust the frog back to do so, but you'll never close that mouth up again as influenced shavings are soo much nicer.

All the best
Tom

Jot, I don't understand how moving the frog has had any effect on blade protrusion. The mating surfaces on the body & frog are machined parallel to the sole on a standard Bailey type, so the frog moves parallel to the sole when you screw it back & forth to increase/decrease the mouth-opening, or at least it should! It shouldn't change the position of the cutting edge relative to the plane of the sole at all. It's quite different for a Bedrock, where the 'frog' slides on an inclined ramp. Closing or opening the mouth on those certainly will affect blade protrusion.

If you have your cap-iron set back from the blade edge in the typical range (something less than 0.8mm), and the adjuster wheel is about the middle of its travel on the stud with the blade just starting to cut, then the distance from the edge of the cap-iron to the adjuster slot is correct. If that distance is out by more than about 1.5-2mm either way, you'll find you have the thumbwheel too far forward or too far back to get a suitable working blade protrusion.

An over-large cam slot in the cap-iron results in excessive backlash and in an extreme case will also cause problems with getting enough protrusion/retraction. There has to be some extra room in the slot because the tip of the cam rotates a little as it's moved up & down & if it is too tight it will bind & make adjustment difficult. Some backlash is inevitable, and actually desirable for smooth adjustment. A turn or three of backlash is not uncommon on a well used old plane, but you quickly get used to it & become only vaguely aware of it.

It's not uncommon to get an old plane with either a switched cap-iron, or one that's been 'doctored' and is a bit short, and the only way you know this in isolation is because of the above mentioned adjuster wheel setting (it can also be due to a damaged/bent yoke, which is a far less-common fault). Mr. Bailey's invention an elegantly simple system, but all the bits have to match properly for it to function as intended.

Cheers

Originally Posted by IanW

Jot, I don't understand how moving the frog has had any effect on blade protrusion. The mating surfaces on the body & frog are machined parallel to the sole on a standard Bailey type, so the frog moves parallel to the sole when you screw it back & forth to increase/decrease the mouth-opening, or at least it should! It shouldn't change the position of the cutting edge relative to the plane of the sole at all. It's quite different for a Bedrock, where the 'frog' slides on an inclined ramp. Closing or opening the mouth on those certainly will affect blade protrusion.

Ian, you understand more than you say you do
I went to the garage this morning and had another look.
20201029_092321 (480x640) (480x640).jpg20201029_092455 (480x640).jpg
I never paid much attention, and my Bailey #6, #7, #7C, #8 and #51/2 all look the same to me. So does it mean I have Stanley Bedrock planes?
So far I have check #6, #7 and #7C, they are exactly the same.
20201029_092655 (480x640).jpg20201029_092749 (480x640).jpg20201029_093018 (480x640) (2).jpg20201029_093111 (480x640).jpg

I always knew that my Stanley #5 and below have different frogs but I thought these bigger planes were just "normal" Bailey Stanley setup, because those are all the big stanleys I have.
And I also just assumed that Carter and Falcon would have the same setup up, until I checked this morning.
20201029_093803 (480x640).jpg20201029_094456 (480x640).jpg
The Falcon Pope is different no doubt.
So am I sitting on some bedrocks?

Originally Posted by justonething

......So am I sitting on some bedrocks?....

Nope, them is regular Baileys. They are (lovely!) earlier models by the shape & full machining of the frog faces, & the 7 at least is a low-knob version which looks like it has 3 patent dates behind the frog. That puts its birthday between 1911 & 1919 (approx). You can see in your pics that the two flats machined on the sole to receive the frog are flat & parallel to the sole. Moving the frog back or forth will not change the depth of the blade relative to the sole. If that happened, something is definitely wrong!

You can spot a "Bedrock" instantly by the flattened sides. Take a look here at Patrick Leach's entry on the Bedrock series, it will explain the difference in the frogs.
[Edit: Actually, Patrick's illustration is far from clear, Peter Sellers pics might be easier to comprehend.]

Don't be disappointed - I agree with his Lordship that the Bedrocks are over-hyped. You have some potentially great planes there...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Nope, them is regular Baileys.

That's is what I thought....
In this case, the frog definitely slides up slightly as I move the frog back.... The bed on these planes are not level but inclines slightly.

Originally Posted by justonething

That's is what I thought....
In this case, the frog definitely slides up slightly as I move the frog back.... The bed on these planes are not level but inclines slightly.

Well, I can't argue with fact, but I'm 99% sure that is not as intended. Either the facets on the frog or the facets on the sole are slightly out of whack. Those old planes were machined very well as a rule, so it's possible there is some damage to the facets on the toe of the frog. Can't think offhand of any other plausible explanation atm.

If the frog is seating firmly in the pulled-back position when screwed down, the plane should work ok, & if it's the only way to get a proper adjustment range with that cap-iron, I guess it's a bonus. However, it might be a mild nuisance if you want to close the mouth up. Being an inveterate fiddler, I would be investigating just what's going on, but if you're happy it ain't broke, then no need to fix it.....

Cheers,

First time planning some Tassie oak with the new chip breaker installed with the existing blade. I'm really happy with it to get full length shavings. It feels smooth and very happy with the price.

Now want to order new blades and chip breakers so that my no4,5,7 are all mcjing'd out



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Delbs, a question: can you set the chipbreaker 0.4-0.5mm back from the edge of the blade?

THAT is a better measure of how good the chipbreaker is than how little backlash there is. Backlash is inconvenient, frustrating for some. I can't say I like it or want to put up with it. But at the end of the day, the best test for a chipbreaker is how well it seats with the blade, and how well it can control tearout. Unless it can be used to do the latter, it is of limited ability. Taking a full width shaving is child's play in soft woods or timber with straight grain ... like Tassie Oak.

Before you lash out on more of these, determine whether it is working as you one day will want it to do.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Delbs, a question: can you set the chipbreaker 0.4-0.5mm back from the edge of the blade?

THAT is a better measure of how good the chipbreaker is than how little backlash there is. Backlash is inconvenient, frustrating for some. I can't say I like it or want to put up with it. But at the end of the day, the best test for a chipbreaker is how well it seats with the blade, and how well it can control tearout. Unless it can be used to do the latter, it is of limited ability. Taking a full width shaving is child's play in soft woods or timber with straight grain ... like Tassie Oak.

Before you lash out on more of these, determine whether it is working as you one day will want it to do.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Yeah ok good point Derek. I'll check this tonight and get back to you


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Incase you don't know, there is a few things that must be in order for the cap iron effect to work correctly.

no.1, Mouth must be open,

No.2, An un-noticable camber on the cutter iron, until paired with the cap iron, so the cap iron won't overshoot the corners.

For my timbers that means the cap iron can never be further than 1/32" away from the edge,
(this distance is measured from the centre of the iron) ..the cap has no effect after this!
I have another plane with an even lesser camber so I can set the cap to 1/64" or even closer if need be.

No.3 The profile of the cap is easier to set if it's honed at between 50 degrees, and 80 degrees, I aim for 51 degrees, something similar to David.

You will never look back once you see the perfect results it achieves.
Thanks to David Weaver's crusade on making this information widely known, I acquired the knowledge.
I am still tickled pink to this day and haven't scraped nor sanded flat surfaces on tropical interlocked timbers since.

Here is some of David Weaver's publications to get you going

Setting a Cap Iron

Setting the Cap Iron - too Close, too Far and about Right - YouTube

David, your linked pictures in the description don't work anymore

Just to give you an idea of a finely set cap iron looks like, here's what I call a cap set around that 1/64" mark.
It can get closer than that for ultimate smoothing, but you might be hard pressed to find timber that you need to set it closer on.
You will certainly see influence of the cap iron at this pictured distance, it may be a bit OTT for most of your stock though.
The rule is if you experience tearout, it's not close enough. (keep planing that torn grain, it will disappear)

Look at the shavings coming up out of the plane in David's videos, there not curling but straight, waxy and shiny burnished look to them.
Look at the reflective finish in some more recent videos he has made comparing the unicorn bevel.

Did I say thank you David Weaver

oh nice write up! very good advice.

Thanks a lot will watch this resource tonight and have a read.

The rule is if you experience tearout, it's not close enough.

Partly so.

It is not simply about getting close. The distance behind the blade to the chipbreaker is also a function of the angle at the chipbreaker's angle at the leading edge. If the angle is too low (<45 degrees), it will act as if the chipbreaker were further back from the edge. Conversely, too high an angle (>65 degrees), and the chipbreaker will act like it is too close. When too close, you get wrinkly, concertina shavings, and the plane is harder to push.

Regards from Perth

Derek