Thread: Progressive pitch/rake handsaws

Originally Posted by ch!ppy

heck i have trouble finding files of different shapes nowadays..not that i have looked hard for them but i would like, what i think they called 'cant' files and or at least some other shaped files that arnt always 'equilateral' triangles

I'd like to see a cant file. Apparently that's what you need for the 120.

Originally Posted by ch!ppy

btw Paul, i am curious, do you happen to be a lefty?

Do you mean ... sawing? ... politics?? ... or something to do with the whale topic???

...

Originally Posted by ch!ppy

^ thats pretty funny, to follow that lead could go, well anywhere

There is a needle file profile called a "Sword" that we'll have access to shortly. Picture an isosceles triangle with two sides about 3mm long and the base about 2mm wide. Now picture two of these base to base and you have a parallelogram (actually a rhombus in this case because the sides are equal length at 3mm).

If you have trouble with that, then imagine a 3mm square and push one corner towards its diagonal opposite until the diagonal measurement is about 2mm (the other diagonal obviously becomes longer).

I think that Liogier calls this a "hook", but I'm sure the usual name is "sword".

These will be available in coarse/medium/fine. Claw Hama has already used the fine sword (currently doing a very slow testing circuit) to sharpen a Japanese pull saw, and found it to be excellent, giving it a score of 5/5 in each of the seven categories (sharpness of file, material removal, finish left etc etc).

I guess that's just a teaser for what is coming up soon - access to 330 different files from France (Engineers - 173, Milled - 46, Saw files - 45, Needle files - 66). There are 32 files going around a test circuit of about ten pairs of talented hands for assessment, and so far the news is very good indeed. We have a small hurdle of consistency to overcome with some of the smaller saw files, but should be solvable.

In the mean time you can read a little more on the saw files here.

Originally Posted by pmcgee

I'd like to see a cant file. Apparently that's what you need for the 120.



Do you mean ... sawing? ... politics?? ... or something to do with the whale topic???

...

haha , actually i just meant left or right handed ...sawing

Originally Posted by pmcgee

Do you mean ... sawing? ... politics?? ... or something to do with the whale topic???

I would have thought the same hand for first and third, and for the second I don't really care. Actually, I don't really care about the third either.

Originally Posted by IanW

I have been waiting for someone to start pushing special diamond or 'ceramic' files in three grits to hone saw teeth to perfection so saws cut without any human intervention, etc., etc.

Ian, on a serious note, would diamond files in three grades be suitable for Saw sharpening? Vallorbe has a few possibilities:
1. Diamond Escapement file - Triangular with 2.8mm wide faces, but the diamond length is only 41mm
2. Diamond needle file - Triangular with 3.7mm faces, and diamond length of either 70 or 80mm
3. Diamond Sword file - as described in my previous post and the diagonals are 5mm and 2.5 mm. I think that means that the faces would be 2.8mm wide
4. Diamond Habilis file - Triangular with 9.5mm face, 110mm diamond length
5. Diamond Mini Habilis file - Triangular with ??mm face, 90mm diamond length
6. Diamond Triangular file - with 7mm face, 100mm diamond length

I should have added that we'll have access to 151 Vallorbe Diamond files.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

3. Diamond Sword file - as described in my previous post and the diagonals are 5mm and 2.5 mm. I think that means that the faces would be 2.8mm wide

Yes 2.8 ... pythagoras and I agree with you.

Thanks for the teaser!

Paul.

BTW I'm right-handed

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Ian, on a serious note, would diamond files in three grades be suitable for Saw sharpening? Vallorbe has a few possibilities:

I doub it, Brett. I tried a couple of diamond files, one a no-name cheapie & a much more costly one, for marking out & cutting teeth. I had the same problem with both. Particularly when marking out, there is a lot of force concentrated on that corner (even with a light touch), which tends to dislodge or shatter the diamond grit, and they lost cutting efficiency on their corners very quickly.

I guess you COULD use them for a little final polishing of saw teeth, but I was being very tongue in cheek when I made that comment about honing saw teeth to 8,000 grit or whatever. It simply isn't necessary to go beyond a sharp new file to get very acceptable results. My aim is to minimise the number of sharpening gadgets (& processes) in my shed, not maximise....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

My aim is to minimise the number of sharpening gadgets (& processes) in my shed, not maximise.... Cheers,

Yep, and a fair call too. I was actually thinking of the final grit for re-sharpening rather than the original cutting of the teeth, and I'm thinking more along the lines of file life rather than polishing the teeth.

Although perhaps it could be argued that a little higher polish may be more effective in a CC saw bevel rather than a rip saw that has no bevel. You'd have to think that a sharper edge on the bevel would a) keep it sharper for longer and b) cut the fibres a little more cleanly. There may be some benefits in having smoother gullets and slopes (fleam) for dust/chip ejection. There's prolly only one way to find that out.....

Mind you, it has to be remembered that I've never sharpened a saw!

[QUOTE=FenceFurniture;1476338]There may be some benefits in having smoother gullets and slopes (fleam) for dust/chip ejection. There's prolly only one way to find that out...../QUOTE]
You could be right but to me the important question is, would it be worth it in terms of time and any resulting improvement to the finished article? I'm a bit ambivalent about the need for transparent shavings when planing but at least the plane is there to give a surface ready or near ready for final finishing. This isn't usually the case with sawn surfaces unless of course you are into rustic furniture.
Cheers,
Jim

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Yep, and a fair call too. I was actually thinking of the final grit for re-sharpening rather than the original cutting of the teeth, and I'm thinking more along the lines of file life rather than polishing the teeth.

Although perhaps it could be argued that a little higher polish may be more effective in a CC saw bevel rather than a rip saw that has no bevel. You'd have to think that a sharper edge on the bevel would a) keep it sharper for longer and b) cut the fibres a little more cleanly. There may be some benefits in having smoother gullets and slopes (fleam) for dust/chip ejection. There's prolly only one way to find that out.....

Mind you, it has to be remembered that I've never sharpened a saw!

just to correct that underlined section, so it doesn't confuse someone else reading at some future time, is 'fleam' is the other word used in place of 'bevel' when it comes to describing saw angles (personally i like the term bevel more and the term fleam to describe the overall shape of the tooth (determined by both the front and rear bevels of the tooth) but the convention is that fleam is the angle on the front of the tooth, otherwise called bevel), slope is a different angle again, which contributes to altering the shape/depth of the gullet and the bevel on the back of the tooth, the fleam or bevel angle on front of tooth is already established and doesnt change when slope is introduced..

interestingly its the angle of slope that generally isnt employed by people that make and sell saws today (or for many years when it comes to that), even the popular bespoke saw makers i see mentioned here on the net (in particular DT saws) that make very pretty saws (machines dont usually put slope in). its by employing slope and thereby increasing the gullet size that can aid in saw dust removal (though i dont doubt in theory at least, putting a finer finish on those gullets and as a natural cause of filing would also result in a finer finish on the bevel or fleam angle of the tooth that may aid in addition, how much as you say would remain to be seen, but considering not many people actually can be bothered or perhaps more so, find it worthwhile to actually file slope into the tooth i am not convinced using a finer finish (say diamond file) would be of much benefit, significantly more benefit can be achieved with by using slope and having those longer gullets as apposed to just using a smoother 'honing' file

for example, i am not great with searching the web so i dont know where it is now, but at one point a while back i came across a utube of rob cosman sawing dovetails, which i think is probably one of his signiture things, i dont want to sound like i am picking on him, he's keen, does a good job, i quite like his on screen presentation manner, speaks well and is to the point, i doubt i could be so good on camera, however i noticed his method of sawing which was overall not bad but i also noticed he removes the saw every few strokes to clear the teeth on the saw..he didnt say but the reason is of course is that the saw teeth, once blocked with saw dust no longer cut effectively, he could significantly reduce that tedious habit he has of removing the saw every few strokes and brushing away the dust from the teeth with his fingers if he used sloping gullets, or more ppi (or tpi depending on which country your from), or using the full length of the saw when he cuts, or using a longer saw (which i think is is a key point noways when so many ppl are cutting reasonably thick stock to standards of artistry to be seen, that in the past DT where considered just a joint and largely out of sight)..using more tpi isnt really an option for him or people doing fine work in the material that seems to be chosen nowadays because they want the smoother finish but some of the other options are..i found that kinda curious that he now also has a 'bespoke' saw for sale, with a different composite handle as the main feature, that is meant to work better but imo its the engine room that hasnt been attended to
i have just recently seen that chris schwartz fellow advising also to use the saw on the pull backwards to start the cut, quite aggressively depressing too, to make a kerf if you like, to start the cut, but later, contradictory he also recommended not to drag the saw against the back of the teeth whilst into the cut due to it causing some damage to the teeth and not an efficient cut, the later part is correct imo but the first part is poor advice...its not that it isnt done, it is, but it is a cheats way of starting the cut at best only to be used if your saw is on the blunt side or you have some other problem, usually only done when one is too lazy or cant handle the saw properly, not something i would teach as a standard way of using a saw..its hard to prove but its possible imo that it damages the teeth and may restrict saw dust removal if the teeth should burr over backwards it would possibly hold sawdust in easier too...i couldn't believe it when i saw it! i was only mentioning it the other day in these posts that its a bad practice, it has a terrible bump, bump grating to it when its tried) done by butchers or the inexperienced rather than a skilled sawer imo

when you get around to organising the file order you have i would be interested to see the details (more so for the standard files), its the shapes that i am interested in, as i mentioned i have trouble getting hold of some of the other shapes nowadays, 'cant' files (which look like a diamond shape from an end profile but squashed down so two points of the diamond shape are further apart and two points are close together , has to be a better way to describe that but it alludes me atm so sorry) but also files that dont have equal length sides, as i like to file some rip saws with rake that goes the other way to the norm, straight 90 deg is common and 8 or so deg back is common too (its easy to start but laborious ripping) but i like an aggressive cut on some of my rip saws, because they, well frankly do the job better, much harder to start (doesn't bother me) but the way i have describe it in the past to ppl is a 90 deg rip tooth acts like a scraper (in plane blade terminology) where a tooth 8-10 or more deg angled forward acts more like a chisel (hook is the term if i recall), i have never really liked the idea of back rake on a rip saw except if need be at the tip, its just inefficient in cutting which reminds me of cutting timber with a bread knife

chippy

Originally Posted by ch!ppy

i have just recently seen that chris schwartz fellow advising also to use the saw on the pull backwards to start the cut, quite aggressively depressing too, to make a kerf if you like, to start the cut, but later, contradictory he also recommended not to drag the saw against the back of the teeth whilst into the cut due to it causing some damage to the teeth and not an efficient cut,

chippy

Was that an online video clip? or a dvd? do you remember?

I'd like to try a rip saw with a forward lean to the teeth ... which I believe would be a negative rake (as opposed to positive rake where the slope is backwards.) (Puts onto 'to be experimented' list)

I can't remember if you have commented before on rip teeth with a small amount of bevel to them ... ie still vertical and forward facing, but angled back a little (5 or 8 degrees). I've seen some of the sharpened saws on ebay described in this format.

I think we need to agree on terminology too.

Rake seems ok - pretty standard - where the (vertical) face of a level file placed across the teeth of a saw is rotated along its own axis either towards the rear of the saw for a positive rake, or towards the front of the saw for a negative rake.

Bevel is ok to me for the angle that a level file placed across the teeth of a saw is angled backwards or forwards towards the rear or front of the saw, without allowing the file to dip or rise away from staying level.

The other concept is that of using the file in a non-level position, with the handle of the file above the level of the tip of the file. I have attached a picture from ebay of the sloped gullets that result - and the alternating appearance that the gullets take on, although the 'top' of each gullet is actually level all along the blade. Also a picture of standard 'level' gullets.

Maybe we should stay away from the 'f' word ... no ... I mean 'fleam' ... if it means different things to different people, and just refer to sloped gullets.

Just my 2c ... (currently valued at significantly less )

Paul.

pm sent

Maybe we should stay away from the 'f' word ... no ... I mean 'fleam' ... if it means different things to different people, and just refer to sloped gullets.

we could stay away from it but the rest of the world or your local saw sharpener wont so just so long as you know 'fleam' and 'bevel' are the same thing and interchangeable words its ok

The other concept is that of using the file in a non-level position, with the handle of the file above the level of the tip of the file. I have attached a picture from ebay of the sloped gullets that result - and the alternating appearance that the gullets take on, although the 'top' of each gullet is actually level all along the blade. Also a picture of standard 'level' gullets.

i wouldn't do it that way though, if you lift the file handle you make it hard to see what your doing, some of the metal saw vices will angle down which would make it easier but i would recommend filing toward the toe of the saw instead of in the direction of the handle (as i described in some previous post), even though you may have the advice to file toward the handle from your saw sharpening instructions dvd's or books i suggest you give it a go the other way, it has a few advantages

Doh ... I keep forgetting!

Sawsets.

What sawset do you guys use?

I think the Eclipse type is pretty cheap and easy to obtain.

RARE BRASS ECLIPSE SAW SET #77 ENGLAND | eBay

RARE SOMEX #250 JAPAN SAW SET | eBay

And maybe?? CS has talked about the Stanley 42X ? (I could be wrong, but might explain the price)

STANLEY NO. 42X Saw Set | eBay

Paul (you can guess which I have )