Thread: Saw questions please...

To be clear there is no Mortise saw, only a tenon saw. A tenon saw is a large backsaw filed rip. A Mortise Chisel is a large, heavy chisel almost square in cross section used to chop out mortises. It is easy to remember the names of the two parts. Mort (death) is the grave or mortise, and Tenant or tenon is the occupant of such a hole.
Hope that helps,
Mike

Originally Posted by msiemsen

It is easy to remember the names of the two parts. Mort (death) is the grave or mortise, and Tenant or tenon is the occupant of such a hole.
Hope that helps,
Mike

I was always a little curious about where the names came from...that's quite cool really!

OP: You used a hacksaw to make your workbench?? That must have been interesting...

As Mike said, a tenon saw is just a backsaw that is filed to make rip cuts (along the grain). Dovetail saws are filed rip too, and it's quite possible to use the same saw for both dovetails and tenons. Backsaws can also be filed crosscut (to make cuts across the grain), and many people have both cross and rip cut backsaws.

Dovetail saws, carcase saws and tenon saws are all filed rip. Dovetail being the smallest of the three and tenon the largest.
Mike

Hi msiemsen,

Mort (death) is the grave or mortise, and Tenant or tenon is the occupant of such a hole.

I did not know this. Thank you for explaining it. I did know that Mort in Mortgage is also (death)!

I am thinking of getting a "05T05-05 Veritas® Dovetail Saw - 20tpi". Can this saw also be used for tenon too, please?

From the picture of the saw, I am guessing that the cut from this saw is much narrower than a normal Stanley hacksaw?

I am also thinking of getting the Lie-Nielsen set-of-five chisel from the U.S.A. It actually works out cheaper than buying them individually.

I would like to make little tables.

Hi NZStu,

I did not know better! And still don't yet. I would like to try it out to get a feeling of the difficulties involve. It almost looked like just apply common sense, but it is not exactly

Thank you and best regards,

...behai.

Behai - those names! 'Tenon', 'dovetail', 'carcase' - they are almnost meaningless, because they only describe very roughly, what the saws were commonly used for. Each came in a variety of blade lengths & sizes & tooth pitches. It is far better to think of small saws by the number of teeth per inch (or simply tooth pitch, if you want to be less 'imperious'), and the tooth pattern, which as pointed out above, can be either 'rip' or 'crosscut'.

Rip teeth are filed 'straight across' to form a chisel-like edge on the top of each tooth. Each tooth is also 'laid back' a bit (negative rake). This is usually of the order of 5-8 degrees (off a perpendicular to the line of teeth).

Crosscut teeth are filed with the file held at an angle to the tooth line so that a point is formed at each tooth tip. This is called 'fleam' and the fleam angle is quite variable, but around 20 degrees is a good average starting-point. Crosscut teeth also have negative rake, generally a bit more than on ripsaws, somewhere between 8 & 15 degrees depending on preference & the wood being cut, but 10-12 degrees is average.

So you use crosscuts for cutting across the grain, rips for cutting with the grain - that's simple enough. Now, what about that tooth pitch business? This is the really important consideration if you want to get the very best out of any saw. Those teeth have to do two jobs - cutting the wood & dragging the sawdust out of the kerf. You need a minumum number of teeth in a cut - that's to support the saw & prevent too much 'bite' - about 6 teeth is often quoted as the minimum advisable. You also want to have not too many teeth in the cut - this is because the gullets (the gaps between teeth) fill with sawdust, so the teeth start 'riding' & stop cutting towards the front of the cut, or cut erratically, so that the exit side in particular will be very hard to keep to the line. How many is too many is a matter of experience & the type of wood being cut. Ripsaws generally have fewer teeth for the same thickness of cut because the teeth bite a bit more & so remove lots of wood & fill the gullets faster.

From my own experience, this is what I recommend for crosscut saws:
20 tpi for cut widths up to about 20mm max.
15 tpi up to around 35mm
12 tpi up to around 65mm

For ripsaws, decrease the number of teeth by a good 20% or more for the same thicknesses.

These are ROUGH guidelines only - it's mostly down to experience and the wood being sawn. I don't get a tape measure out and check each piece of wood before reaching for a saw, and because I have a bit of experience, I can probably pursuade a saw through a cut when I should have gone & gotten a more appropriate size.

Funally, blade length. You could once buy saws with the same tooth pithes & patterns in a bewildering number of blade lengths. As far as I can tell, this was simply to cater for personal preference & sawing styles. Some people prefer to use smaller tools (I do) so that they are not in your way. I choose a saw that has enough length for me to make a comfortable stroke (using all of it's teeth). Others like big, long, monsters, and can do just as good a job as I can (or better!) with my shorter saws - again, it's just preferences & what we are used to.

You're not the first person to cut dovetails with a hacksaw, and there's no reason why you couldn't do a pretty good job with one. But I think an appropriate backsaw can be much, much easier. When it is well-matched to the job & the user, it is an accurate, speedy tool that is a joy to use....

Cheers,

Hi IanW,

Thank you very much for the post -- it would have taken quite a few minutes to finish. I appreciate that very much.

Originally Posted by IanW

...
So you use crosscuts for cutting across the grain, rips for cutting with the grain
...

I found the above useful. So, am I correct in understanding that hacksaw is a crosscut saw. While backsaw is a rip cut saw?

Thank you and best regards,

...behai.

A hacksaw is a fine-toothed saw for cutting metal - not usually wood. Metals don't normally have much in the way of grain, so the crosscut/rip question is somewhat moot.

A backsaw is a saw with a rigid spine along the back of the blade, and can be either crosscut or rip depending on intended use.

Yep - what Stu says.

Actually, if you study a hacksaw blade, the teeth are cut as chisel points, like a ripsaw for wood. In general, the teeth aren't as sharp as those of a well-filed wood saw, but a new blade that hasn't been taken to metal will certainly cut wood after a fashion. When you get hold of a decent & well-sharpened saw for wood, you will soon see what we are talking about.....

The "back" part, or spine serves to stiffen the otherwise very flexible thin blade, & prevent it from kinking when you push & pull it through the cut (or 'kerf'). You can get 'western' and 'Japanese' back saws. For reasons that have more to do with tradition than engineering, "western" saws are made to cut on the push stroke, while Japanese saws cut on the pull stroke. They also have straight, long, handles, while western saws have the 'pistol' style (open or closed) handles. Each has advantages & disadvantages, that have been bandied about on this forum from time to time. In my view, they come out pretty even when all is diced & weighed, so it's a matter of what you like & get used to. I grew up with western saws & get along with them ok, & I'm not likely to switch, but for someone starting out, it's worth considering going Japanese. You can get a very decent saw for quite a bit less than a good western backsaw will cost you (new). Of course, the very best way to go is the way of the true enthusiast - get some old back saws & learn how to make them work. But that's another story.....

Cheers,

Hi Stu and Ian,

Thank you very much for spending times to answer my questions.

I must apologise for the error that I made in my original post. Knowing that hacksaw is for cutting metal:

I actually used the saw in (B) to build the "workbench". It is a crosscut then. (A) is a hacksaw. (C) is a key hole Japanese saw MS-120KY that I bought from Carba-Tec for $35.00.

Ian, thank you for explaining the differences between Japanese saws and Western saws. I am actually grew up with Western style saws; but I had never learned how to saw properly before. We even had a few American saws left from the days they were in Vietnam. I am still keen on "05T05-05 Veritas® Dovetail Saw - 20tpi" backsaw. I am going to get one in July or so. I am learning planning first.

Thank you and best regards,

...behai.