Thread: Why do ramped shooting boards go DOWN and not UP?

only thing I can think of - pushing a plane up an (admittedly shallow) ramp is harder than pushing it down the opposite ramp. Overcoming the "sticking" force when starting the cut is probably the issue

Hi Chief,
The only different ones I have seen are the ones Jim Davey makes. His go from low to high.
Ross

Hi Chief,

Going from high to low would put a slight downward force on the piece as it cuts.

Gravity also help to pin the work against the rear support reducing the chance of it slipping.

I maybe completely wrong though...

Regards,

Adam

it doesn't make a huge difference either way you go, but the general guide it is because when you're cutting you want as much help as possible ie with gravity. Whereas if you had it the other way around you're pushing the plane against gravity but obviously on the return you have gravity on your side.

I think there might be a bit of misunderstanding regarding where the ramp is, it is the work piece that sits on the ramp and the plane runs back and forth horizontally.
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Thanks Ross for spotting the Jim Davey shooting boards; as can be seen they go (in my mind) the correct way:

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Maybe because the plane might have a tendency to lift the board if the board was high at the beginning of the cut.....maybe and I reserve the right to say I am wrong.

Chris I think you are correct. I been rattling my brain for hours.
Regards,
Ross

Chief, I agree with you as I have observed the same issues.

My belief is that a ramped board serves two purposes, firstly it introduces a slight paring action and secondly it spreads wear across a wider section of the plane blade.

I also believe that with the Jim Davey design the paring action introduces a slight down force which assists in keeping the work piece in situ and requires less effort from the operator in doing so.

Simple physics - like pushing a desk across the floor - if the applied force is parallel to the floor it firstly has to overcome friction then the desk will move; however if the same force is applied at say 30 degrees down towards the floor then some of the applied force (down) is actually creating more friction and less horizontal force to create movement. If the force is applied at say 30 degrees upwards i.e. away from the floor then some of the applied force (up) is lifting the trailing edge of the desk and creating a rotation.

If the shooting plane bed / ramp and the work piece deck are parallel then there is one force vector created in the horizontal (forward) direction which pushes the work piece into the rear fence and generates the "cut".

When the shooting plane bed / ramp and the work piece deck are not parallel then there are two forces generated;

one in the horizontal (forward) direction which pushes the work piece into the rear fence and produces the "cut";

the second a (much smaller) vertical force either up or down which also tends to rotate the work piece either as lift (as in the upper photo in your post #6) or apply a down force into the work piece deck ((Jim Davey style shooting board.)

Something I had never really given any thought to as I had only ever seen the down sloping boards. The Jim Davey board does look the better way. Looks like you get more skew working for you. A new shooting board is on my lockdown to do list but then that is just an extension of the main, fairly flexible to do list.
Regards
John

First of all, the angle in a ramped board - roughly 5 degrees - does not equate to the skew in a skew plane (20 degrees). The angle is so mild that one cannot describe it as cutting with a slicing action. Instead, the slight angle offer a progressive entry to the wood, and this reduces the impact.

Secondly, the angle is too small also to spread the wear on a blade. This argument is a fallacy.

The reverse angle is does indeed act to push the work piece down on the table. This is still not suited to shooting anything other than veneer (which would be layered under a piece of ply). Below is a double shooting board of Neil Erasmus (I took this photo about 10 years ago, when we were presenting at a Lie Nielsen Tool Event in Perth) ...



Note that he has a second ramped board which runs the other way. That is used for general shooting.

The concept Jim has is interesting. There is a lot wrong with his board: it is too short to use to shoot side edges (look at the long boards that Terry Gordon uses - these are much better designs), plus the reverse ramp really reduces the thickness which may be planed. I do like the side fence.

The other ramped board is by Tico Vogt. This is his third version. The first was a complete copy of one of mine using ply.

I have stated this before: ramped boards benefit shooting planes with straight blades. They are not worth the time to build, and do not offer enough benefits, if you have a skew-bladed shooting plane.

Regards from Perth

Derek

agree with what derek said, but there's an easy way to find out why things are the way they are - mock up a shooting board out of scrap and don't build an elaborate ramp, just something simple and try it. The idea of having the item being shot at the top of the plane blade seems to me like it wouldn't be a great feel and may be harder to start. Could just be my imagination.

Shooting boards are generally for small work or thin work. It's perhaps a modern thing that they're seen for something like drawer ends (which can be trued in pairs in a vise pretty easily if they're marked for length).

I have a giant board (not ramped) because I made a giant shooting plane - see linky below.



This plane is intended to go two ways, but I've only got one large one-way board for it so far. Why? because it's less work to put large items in a vise and a plane will cut far longer in footage upright cutting end grain than it will shooting because you lose the advantage of downforce on the plane that's created simply by the plane's weight and the orientation of the handle. It would be interesting to see someone test this, but I'd bet the advantage is several times - as in, you can plane not just a little longer with work in a vise, but several times longer.

I made an infill skew shooter shortly after this one that's far better at actual shooting, and it's capable of huge thick shavings but even as good as it is (and it may not be cosmetically great, but it's a really good shooter, the best I've ever used), it still is probably an even contest in terms of effort in trimming large panel ends -except to do that in the vise, I don't need to get a shooting plane out and nothing more than a stanley smoother is needed.





If you're wondering what good a hundredth shaving is when shooting, think trimming a board that's been handsawn. It's massively useful for that - but still not better than just planing the panel in a vise with a smoothing plane (which costs nothing).

If you're absolutely into shooting because you like to do it, treat yourself to (buy or make) a skew plane and keep the board simple, or forgo the pleasure and only shoot small stuff where you don't need a ramped board in the first place (or a special plane - there's a probably a reason that old shooting planes aren't that common for solid wood work). The advent of precious (and sometimes expensive beginner trap) shooting boards is really strange.

separate comment about edge durability - last year, I tested a bunch of irons. I have not used a shooting board for a long time, so I didn't have a good idea of a difference in usefulness (footage planed) of a bench plane in the vise vs. a shooting plane on its side.

I trimmed a wide cherry board with O1 and PM-V11 and expected a brief test. Like a couple of hundred feet (that would be a lot of strokes on the ends of small sticking).

Instead, I got something like 900 feet of planing out of O1 and 1050 out of V11 (the v11 was doubly durable in long grain, but for some reason, not in end grain).

That footage drew instant responses of "BS!! not possible to plane that far!!" but another poster on the woodcentral forum (who was offended that V11 was outperforming carbon steel) pretty much duplicated the effort with a stanley plane and stock iron. I tested these things because I was curious and nobody else wanted to. Some things turn out to be immediately evident with a relatively simple test, and I think if you tested an upward ramp (in a crude setup), you'd come to a conclusion fast and it would be useful for the rest of the folks here. It's a real discussion killer, though - people on forums prefer supposition and theoretical discussions to practical tests at least 10 to 1.

Thanks for all the replies; I think the only way to really get this sorted for me as DW suggests is to make a simple version of each type and see how it performs. I’ll add it to the list of things to try and get done over the break!

Now of course I’m thinking about how I can build a reversible version with a fence at each end and a cleat that quickly swaps between then.... oh why did I open this can of worms!

Originally Posted by D.W.

Some things turn out to be immediately evident with a relatively simple test, and I think if you tested an upward ramp (in a crude setup), you'd come to a conclusion fast and it would be useful for the rest of the folks here. It's a real discussion killer, though - people on forums prefer supposition and theoretical discussions to practical tests at least 10 to 1.

Derek raises some good points particularly the benefit of 20 degree skew plan vs a 5 degree ramp and the "improved" skew cutting / paring action of the blade.

I respectfully disagree with Derek's comment "Secondly, the angle is too small also to spread the wear on a blade. This argument is a fallacy." as a very simple inspection of the sole of the "shooting plane" used with a ramped shooting board vs a parallel board quickly disproves that statement. On the parallel board a distinct wear band is created whereas on the ramped board the band is wider. My crude experiments / tests used boards with a more pronounced / exagerated ramp angle than 5 degrees or the even smaller angles seen on "long edge" shooting boards. Its easy to test. You do not need to construct an elaborate board for each test, just a deck with a fence then a mockup ramp packed and clamped in position to be stable and safe enough to trial.

Historically, shooting boards and donkey's ear style shooting boards were used to finesse end grain or crosscut cuts made by handsaws of deliberately over length work pieces and of course for mitres. The "long edge" truing work done on the work bench held in vices or "vee" blocks. Check out the many historical books available through the Gutenberg Project.

From a practical view point and in my use I find a ramped Jim Davey style shooting board a vast improvement over a standard flat shooting board, but then I'm mostly shooting end and face grain on small blocks 19 x 19 by 6 mm thick used in "herringbone" pen blanks etc. However I constructed a standard flat shooting board 'cos I'm a "lazy" and practical wood worker so didn't want to go to the extra effort and time. My boards are tools or jigs to be used and rebuilt as necessary or discarded when I no longer have a use for them.

I have two shooting boards, one approx 400 long which caters for up to 200 mm long / wide end or side grain work and the second approx 600 mm long which I use almost exclusively for shooting true and parallel the edges on thin laminated boards that are typically 300 to 400 mm long that I construct for making "inlay bandings."

With the vastly improved circular saw blades available today I'm trying to make any physical effort and shooting boards redundant. Here is a sample of the inlay bandings constructed from "off the saw blade" components. No shooting planes were harmed in their creation, 'cept for a minor exercise in trueing and paralleling long edges on boards to enable accurate cuts on my donkeys ear sleds. All bandings are less than 10 mm wide with most 6.5 mm wide, so very small components "off the saw blade." No its not "BS" it is achievable with well thought out jigs and sleds!

edit - ps, I also "cheat" to spread wear on my plane blades on a shooting board, by using layers of "masonite" stacked on the shooting board deck, 'coz I'm lazy.