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15th March 2021, 05:35 PM #1
Rebate Block Planes: Henry Eckert vs Lie Nielsen
Hello everyone,
I'm deciding between the Lie Nielsen and the Henry Eckert rebate block planes. On paper the HE is better value as it has more features (fence system, thicker blade, heftier, larger nicker, Howard adjuster, etc) but I haven't been able to find any reviews. If anyone has the HE version, please share your ownership experience in particular the fit and finish. I own a few LN planes and I'm happy with their quality to the point that I'm happy to buy without first personally checking out the plane, but the HE is an unknown quantity to me so I'd appreciate any feedback. I'm aware that it's Australian made, so I would hope that quality is at least on par with the LN.
Cheers,
Mike
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15th March 2021, 11:45 PM #2
I have never used a rebate block plane but (this is just my take on it) if I wanted to cut a rebate I would get a proper rebate plane with a handle. Skew blade is best but the old Stanley or Record 78 does a reasonable job too. A block plane with its short wide body does not look ideal for the job. Likely ok to clean up a small bit of rebate now and then but I think a longer slimmer plane with a handle gives more control for that task.
Regards
John
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16th March 2021, 12:07 AM #3
I agree, John. If it was purely going to be used to cut rebates, there are more suitable planes for the job, but I don't intend to use this plane solely for that purpose. It'll probably used for cleaning up tenon cheeks, chamfering (with the sub-fence if I go with the HE), and just as a general block plane. The only rebates I see it being used for are drawer bottoms which would probably only be 6mm wide. Cheers.
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19th March 2021, 02:47 PM #4
I went through this process about 5 years ago, Mike - before Henry Ekert offered his labelled block plane. The planes I considered were:
- Lie Nielsen
- Lee Valley
- Luban
- Luban with adjustable mouth.
Eventually I went with the Latter, partly on price and after 5 years I am still satisfied. I use it as a block plane for tasks listed in your last post. I do not think I have ever cut a rebate with it. (Except for finessing right up to the shoulder on tennon cheeks.)
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19th March 2021, 06:25 PM #5
G'day Graeme,
There seems to be very little reviews/feedback on the HE planes in general but even more so for their rabbeting block plane. A fellow forum member asked me in my WTB thread to post my thoughts on it so I shall endeavour to do that in my following post below.....
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19th March 2021, 10:17 PM #6
Hey all,
I've just taken delivery of the HE rabbet block plane and I was asked to provide some feedback on it. I would like to preface my comments below by first saying that I have no affiliation either with Henry Eckert Toolworks or Lie Nielsen. I will try to provide an unbiased opinion and the comments below are my first impressions of the plane and I will be focussing on it's quality and comparing it to a number of Lie Nielsen block planes that I own. It should be noted that my comments are based on a sample size of one. I've never held let alone seen another Henry Eckert plane so please take my comments with a grain of salt.
With that out of the way, below are my first impressions.....
20210319_133054.jpg
The packaging is excellent. The box is made of very thick cardboard and the corners reinforced with steel brackets. If the plane lives up to this standard, then it's going to at least be on par with the Lie Nielsen planes.
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The inside packaging looks just as promising with what looks to be rust inhibiting paper used.
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Here is the plane freshly unwrapped. It's heft makes a great first impression and it feels good in the hand.
20210319_134359.jpg
Here it is compared to my LN Skew Block Plane and LN Low Angle Block Plane. It's longer than the LA block plane (and the LN Rabbet Block Plane going by the specs) and about the same as the Skew. I don't have any scales but I reckon the HE is the heaviest of the three.
20210319_162753.jpg
Some of the extra heft is due to the thicker blade. The HE is 5mm and made from PM-10V and the LN is about 3.3mm made of A2 steel. I'm all for thicker blades although I don't know if it's entirely required in this application. I've never once wished that the LN block planes had thicker blades. Note how the edges of the LN blades have been "softened" or arissed.
20210319_133355.jpg
The first issue I noticed was the screw for the front tote isn't flush like the LN planes. Note also the "blotchy" finish of the top of the tote. It's more visible in the next pic which was taken without a flash.
20210319_171311.jpg
I deepened the countersinking until the screw was flush.
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The next thing I noticed are what I can only describe as "pitting" on the knuckle cap (circled in blue). I believe both the lever cap and fence are cast in white bronze and I'm afraid to report that HE falls down in this aspect. Their bronze parts do not hold up to that from Lie Nielsen (and Veritas). The cast iron body does not seem to suffer from this pitting problem but their bronze parts do.
20210319_135601.jpg
This is the biggest pitting hole that I found. It's on the arm of the fence so not really an aesthetic issue but it is a potential weak spot if the piece was to be placed under stress.
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More tiny pitting on the fence arm. This part obviously hasn't been machined so they're less noticeable.
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More tiny pitting on the knuckle cap. Also note the scratches/ding. That's straight out of the box.
To be cont.......
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19th March 2021, 10:26 PM #7
.....continuing on......
20210319_134902.jpg
Another area where HE falls short is the quality of their edges as shown in the above photo of the underside of the cap iron. Note the burrs left on the edge of the hole. While this is not an issue on this particular part, this lack of attention detail is also prevalent in other areas which affect comfort and use.
20210319_164118#1.jpg
20210319_135359.jpg
Here is a close up of the fence. Note the little bumps on the edges. They are raised and would probably mark the work piece. Also note the milling marks and the unchamfered holes. Whilst they do not bother me (as long as the fence is flat), they are absent from the LN fence.....
20210319_135722.jpg
The pic above is of the fence of one of my LN Skew Planes. Note how it appears to be in better condition despite being used and rattling around my drawers. Also note chamfered holes and the lack of milling marks indicating it has either been lapped or sanded. This may be an unnecessary step but it indicates more care and more attention to detail which is evident throughout all facets of their plane from my experience.
20210319_163958#1.jpg
Close up of the casting "dag" on the leading edge of the HE fence. There's really no excuse for this. The other end also has a "dag" but not as big.
The "edges" I have mentioned so far have been of the bronze parts, which seem to be the worst examples. While the edges of the cast iron do not have the extent of defects as the bronze parts, they could do with some softening for comfort sakes, particularly the 4 corners of the sole.
20210319_163559#1.jpg
Above is a photo of the sharp rear corner of the HE.......
20210319_163707#1.jpg
.....the rear corner of the LN in comparison.
Another area where the LN demonstrates its superior quality is the tolerance of the hole for the fence rod. It's impossible to demonstrate with a photo, but the machining tolerance of the hole in the LN Skew is so tight that there's an audible and satisfying "pop" when the fence rod is pulled out. The HE fence rods fit so loosely in their holes that there's almost 8mm of play. I should mention that the LN needs that level of tolerance in order for their fence to stay true as they only use a single (1/4") rod to support the fence although I've never found this to be a problem in practise. The HE fence with it's two 5mm rods I imagine would be a lot sturdier. I do prefer LN's method of adjusting the fence with a simple brass thumbscrew as opposed to HE's grub screws which require an Allen wrench.
20210319_135918.jpg
Above is a photo showing the difference between the rods.
So far I have been quite critical of the HE plane and most would probably assume that I regret my decision to opt for the HE plane over the LN version. While I stand by my criticisms, I would like to say that I do not regret buying this plane and would make the same exact decision tomorrow. Let me explain my why. My decision for choosing the HE is simple, it was the only rabbet block plane I found to have all the features I was looking for (knickers, fence, Howard adjuster, quality blade). I was not expecting it to be on par with LN or Veritas when it came to fit and finish. It's probably unrealistic for a small Australian company to compete with much larger companies such as LN, Lee Valley, or even Luban/QuangSheng/Wood River/etc. I was hoping....but not expecting.
It's probably best that I end on a positive note by listing some of the planes qualities that I like.....
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The long fence and the "fence system" in general. The two rod system should provide a more stable support and the longer fence will provide better registration. The downside is it's more fiddlier to adjust.
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The included 45 degree aluminium sub-fence is a bonus and will ensure uniform chamfers, however, I will need to enlarge the clearance at the mouth to allow more of the blade to protrude.
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The LN fence for comparison.
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Another plus for the HE is the much larger knicker. I measure it to be about 13.5mm and according to HE, they're made from "PM-10V tool steel". I've no experience with PM-10V steel, but if it's similar to PMV-11, then they should hold their edge a lot longer than the LN knickers. One potential problem that I see is the HE knickers are recessed and not flush with the body. I'll see if this presents a problem with use.
20210319_171249.jpg
The LN knickers in comparison are approx 9.5mm in diameter and they sit flush or perhaps slightly proud of the sides of the plane.
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Another feature I like about the HE plane is that it comes with a Howard adjuster as standard. These can be retrofitted on to the LN planes but it's an added cost ($34 + postage). I like them so much that I bought three for my LN planes.
20210319_201425#1.jpg
The brass knob on the Howard adjuster is larger making adjustments easier and smoother (along with the bearing). And more brass on a hand plane is never a bad thing .
Other than the deficiencies I've already mentioned (fit and finish, tolerance, etc), the only other improvements I would suggest is better branding and better customer service. Regarding the branding, no where on the plane or packaging does it mentions "Made in Australia". The box says "Made in Adelaide" but I reckon internationally "Made in Australia" would be more recognisable and perhaps carry more "cred". And it definitely needs to be on the plane, preferably on the cast iron body, which has no markings whatsoever (I would have the HE logo and Australia), or at the very least the plane blade should have it. It shouldn't be too hard to do on the plane blade as it's just laser engraved. And while they're at it, I reckon they should mark their plane blades with "PM-10V" like Veritas do with their PMV-11 blades.
So to summarise, I reckon the HE Rabbet Block Plane is a good plane with some unique features but is let down by quality and tolerance issues. I would suggest cutting back on some of the features (delete the aluminium 45 deg sub fence as this can be made by the end-user; thinner blade; cast iron fence instead of white bronze) and use the cost instead to improve the bronze casting issues and the general fit and finish of the plane. Hopefully HE's quality improves because I'd like to see companies who manufacture locally prosper. If HNT Gordon can produce world-class quality planes, I don't think it's unrealistic to expect better from HE Toolworks. That's my 2 cents.
Cheers,
Mike
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20th March 2021, 12:09 AM #8
You know, with those casting issues I would be inclined to contact them.... Especially the knuckle cap.
There is no way those should have passed QC.
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20th March 2021, 01:18 AM #9
Perhaps I should, WP, but I've spoken to them twice and it wasn't a pleasant experience on both occasions and that was before I had even received the plane. I could probably kick up a stink but to be honest I can't be bothered - life's too short to deal with unnecessary grief. I pretty much had an inkling they had quality control issues after reading the thread on here about their LA Jack plane. I doubt if the replacement knuckle cap is gonna be any better.
The first conversation I was seeking clarification with exactly what was included in their "fence system". More specifically if it came with the 20 & 45 degree sub-fence (45deg = yes; 20deg = no) . The photo of the fence didn't show any screw holes so I was unsure. When I called the number, I was greeted abruptly and when I asked the question, I was made to feel like I was asking a stupid question. I had to explain why I was seeking clarification. Keep in mind that I was a customer with my "finger poised on the trigger" ready and willing to purchase the plane. If he hadn't "defrosted" a bit, I would have changed my mind. As it was, I slept on it just to make sure I wanted to go ahead and ended up purchasing it the next day.
The 2nd conversation wasn't any better. Again, I was greeted very abruptly as if it was a huge bother to take my call. The reason for my 2nd call was because I was wondering what had happened to my order. I purchased the plane before 8:30am on Tuesday. To quote their shipping policy as stated in their website:
"Orders $100 and under ship with Express Post for $10. All orders over $100 ship with Startrack Overnight for $15. All shipments are trackable."
Now, my order was definitely over $100, and more importantly I was charged $15 for Startrack Overnight. I had taken this into consideration and purchased the plane when I knew I would be home the following two days (i.e. Wed and Thurs). When most of Thursday had almost passed, I called to ask what had happened to my order especially considering I hadn't received any emails confirming my order or that it had shipped. The only email I got was the receipt from Paypal. When I asked about my order and mentioned that I hadn't received any email, the person I spoke to (he didn't introduce himself on either occasions) got defensive and told me that it has been sent. And when I asked for the tracking number, he got even more defensive and just said something along lines that the tracking is very basic. It was only after I received the package today that I realised his reason for being defensive. Yep, you guessed it, it was sent via Aus Post - Express Post satchel. Now, to some people this may sound trivial (what's $5 in the grand scheme of things?), but to me it speaks volumes about the company's integrity. I do not believe this was an honest mistake. IMO, it was deliberately done to maximise their profit margin. It left me with a bitter taste in my mouth. I don't mind spending the money, but I hate it when I'm taken advantage of. Why don't they just charge a flat fee of $15 and make no mention of which carrier they're going to use? It's their claim of using Startrack and using that as a justification to charge extra and then using a cheaper postal method is what leaves the bitter taste.
I wasn't going to share my experience originally, but I think fellow forum members would want to know. If I thought contacting the company would lead to improvement in the quality of their products, then I'd call or send the email, but both conversations lead me to believe that any criticism/feedback, even if it's constructive, would not be well received. I highly doubt I'll be a returning customer. That comment I made earlier about buying the plane again tomorrow, that's just to illustrate that the QC issues of the plane was not a deal-breaker for me. However, the bitter taste I feel from being lied and taken advantage of IS a deal-breaker and if I were to lose the plane, I would replace it with a LN (or a Veritas if they came out with their version). Anyhoo......that's all from me. Cheers.
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20th March 2021, 09:24 AM #10Member
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Thanks KahoyKutter for your honest and comprehensive review. I have no affiliation with HE and have only bought from them once before. I bought their honing guide. Actually, no, I added some accessory jaws on another occasion. Some time after receiving it I noticed an issue with the chisel-holding part of the guide which wasn't clamping the chisel square. Upon contacting HE they were quick to confirm that there was a batch which had that issue and promptly sent me a replacement. So I thought that was good of them. Still, a quality control issue.
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20th March 2021, 10:14 AM #11
There's very little ownership feedback about HE products, but of the few that I have read, there always seem to be quality issues. Some of the defects are only aesthetic and trivial, but others I would regard as major as they affect the functionality of the product (e.g. jaws not square; not being able to fully close plane mouths; etc). It is very disconcerting especially for such a small sample size. And I think they are aware of these defects but they just don't care. Some of these defects are quite obvious and if you think about it, someone has to assemble these planes. There is no way these defects can go unnoticed. Take the tote screw as an example, whoever screwed the tote on would have clearly realised that the countersinking was too shallow causing the screw to be proud by more than a millimetre. It's so obvious that it jumped out at me when I first saw the plane. They just don't care. They seem to count on there being more customers like me who cannot be bothered to complain about their products. To me that's a bad business model. You would think a company trading under their family name would care more about the quality of their products and the ownership experience of their customers.
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21st March 2021, 02:11 PM #12New Members
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Henry Eckert Rebate Block Plane
Henry Eckert Toolworks thank you for your feedback on the Rebate Block Plane you recently received and your experience dealing with us.
I would like to attempt to reply to your observations and comments roughly in the order they were made.
To be mentioned in the same sentence as Lie-Nielsen & Veritas is encouraging for us, I know we have improved over the last year but we have a little way to go.
Before I refer to the tool itself I can say I remember your first call. At the conclusion of that call you asked if we had stock of the plane, I confirmed we did. After you placed your order we realised the stock we thought we had was not correct and we would have to assemble a new batch.This is not normally a problem but we discovered the last group of front knobs had yet to be finished, ie lacquered. So we were under pressure to finish the tools and get yours shipped. We are also currently completing two new tools which is proving a challenge so all in all, not a good week but we push on.
Before we go any further, apologies for any abruptness you received on the phone, a torrid week but that is no excuse.
- Cap iron issue. The cap iron on your plane had three issues, a small pit, roughness around the cap screw hole on the underneath and some small scratches. Manganese and white bronze castings are prone to pitting. I remember being in the Lie-Nielsen foundry, watching them polish #102 cap irons, there were two boxes, one for no pitting and one for rejected cap irons with pitting. Often the pitting or pit is not revealed until polished and often the polishing removes the pit(s) if they are not too deep. In your case the pit was missed, bad QC. We do not send out polished pitted cap irons. I have checked 20 or so cap irons this morning re the roughness of the cap screw hole underneath. Most were clean but some had a small drill burr, to be perfectly honest this issue is new to us, but we can now be aware and make sure it doesn't occur in future, it is easily controlled. The scratches were also poor QC that day, missed along with the pit.
I will send a replacement cap iron this week, and a return freight bag to return the current one so we can put it back in the furnace, where it belongs. BTW, this is the first customer cap iron 'pit' issue that I am aware of, - Front knob. If you look at our website picture of the tool you can see we recess the screw head below the top surface of the knob normally... Your tool was not recessed enough and there was scuff on the top surface. All due to the rush to get the tool out, but, this is no excuse for lacking quality control. Again, I will also send a replacement. The figured red gum has been very successful and looks good, that is the feedback we are getting.
- Fence. I have to admit, your comments have been very helpful. I have been hell bent on making a strong, stable, flat & square performing fence and perhaps not putting enough energy into the finish. Again, the white bronze is prone to porosity, surface blemishes. Personally, I am not too fussed in the the non-machined areas if there is some indication the part was cast. I know the LN looks 'smoother' in Manganese Bronze. We can change to Manganese Bronze which pours better or cast it in ductile iron and then powder coat it. None of these changes are cheaper to manufacture. We can finish off the fence better I am sure, I guess we treated it as more a functioning item under the tool not so much a show piece. But you are right, we can & will improve its finish.
I will send you another fence, no problem.
I think we will continue to offer the 45° screw on fence for chamfering, it is very affective and probably more accurate being CNC machined than some (not all) shop made wooden 45° screw ons. - Fence mounting rods. The holes that accept the rods are 5 mm. Certainly strong enough to support the fence given there are two of them. We wanted to make a decent fence for the tool that was long enough to avoid following hollows etc in a workpiece to make sure the rebate was straight. Particularly obvious on long rebates like a cabinet back. This is also why we chose the longer Sargent No 507 rather than the shorter 60 1/2 type style. The LN type fence on their skew block plane is shorter and has one rod mount, we did not want to use that system, more of a guide than a fence maybe. We just wanted it to be more substantial to ensure straighter, flatter finishes.
Back to the holes. We originally had 5mm rods for the 5mm holes giving that snug fit you mentioned. But, given we had two rods the outrigger affect of the fence could tend to make the fence skew a little as it was pushed in. This skewing could make it sort of jam which was really only avoided by pushing the fence in with two hands, giving equal pressure each side. (not necessary with a single rod set up). Then the plane had to be made stable while you pushed the fence in using two hands. A solution was put more room, or play, into the rods. The extra clearance makes it easier to adjust with one hand but does not affect the support particularly when the grub screws are nipped up. I will get you to try some 5mm rods I have and see what you prefer.
I do not mind the A2 black grub screws, particularly on the plane. They become more inconspicuous than heavy screws, look neater to me. But, nevertheless I do have some stainless small M4 thumbscrews that I can put on your replacement fence on the outside and see which you would rather. - Freight. We use both Startrack & Express Post. I agree we should either say we use both at different times or not mention what we use. But, please be assured we were not maximising profits! by using Express Post. Your order missed the Startrack batch that day (or we didn't have a pick up, cant remember) so rather than wait another day I sent it with Express Post to make sure you got it next day. We can post Express Post as late as 6 00 pm. Express Post (normally) offers overnight delivery to capital cities as it was with you. You did not get a lesser service, both were overnight. I will put $5 in with the other parts to help you feel more comfortable with the freight perception. There is only a very minor difference in Express Post / Startrack costs for us, negligible really.
We are happy with the acceptance of our tools of late. We have many supporting and encouraging emails. We had some growing pains a couple years ago and nearly gave up 18 months ago but we are now determined to deliver the best. We have three new tools about to be released and more in the pattern making stage.
The editor of Australian Woodsmith magazine purchased our Rebate Block Plane a few weeks ago to test & review it, I think it will be in the next issue.
We appreciate your feedback, glad you liked our packaging...
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21st March 2021, 07:34 PM #13
Firstly, welcome to the forum and thank you for responding to my feedback.
Secondly, you should be applauded for taking ownership of the lapse in QC and your efforts in addressing some of the issues of my plane. And I'm glad that you found some value in my feedback. Regarding your two rod fence system, I fully acknowledge that it provides a more solid and larger reference surface. It's one of the reasons why I chose your plane. As for the loose fit of the rods, I suspected that a bit of play may be needed due to the dual support rods. And while I prefer thumbscrews, I should have mentioned that grub screws are the only possible solution as there's simply no room under the blade to secure the rear rod. It's a compromise I am prepared to live with in exchange for a larger and more stable fence.
Thirdly, If I may be bold to offer one last suggestion, I suggest that you change the stock photos on your website as some of the issues are clearly visible as per below:
HE Rabbet BP comments.jpg
You may also want to change the stock photo of your LA Jack. It clearly shows the protruding screws as mentioned in this post by Morbius in the LA Jack plane thread. There's at least one thread protruding on the bottom screw. The leading edge of the top screw also appears to be proud of the tote. Please see attached photo.
HE LA Jack.jpg
Lastly, I accept your apology and I look forward to reading the review in Australian Woodsmith magazine.
Regards,
Mike
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22nd March 2021, 12:12 AM #14
I thought that response from the manufacturer was one of the very best Ive EVER seen from anyone.
Absolutely bang on.
I'd really love to see a tour of the manufactury. Local business needs to be solidly celebrated. I think looking at how these companies work is even more fascinating than the art they produce!
KahoyKutter, I feel the rough edges and deliberately unfinished surfaces add to the "semi-machine-ness" of the tool. I think it looks cool. The polished surfaces are super nice and the bits that are flat are super flat (except, as you pointed out, that little dag on the fence).... by leaving the casting alone it is openly advertising "hey, I was cast by HAND in a sand mould by a PERSON.... look at these excellent wabi-sabi elements"....
Trouble is, once you start grind and removing, then you loose all that attractive sand-cast features.... like a smudge on a face - once a little bit comes off the whole face needs cleaning (Newt. My name is Newt.). If every surface is to be perfect, then it may as well be burped out of a CNC machine and thats pretty boring and soul-less.
Still, magnificent response @TheToolworks ... bang on. Kudos.
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22nd March 2021, 02:51 AM #15
Yep, I totally agree. It was a good response - he apologised, took ownership of the issues, and then rectified it. I can't ask any more than that.
As for a bit of wabi-sabi, yep, I don't mind a bit of it. But be honest, if this was a Luban or Quangsheng plane, would you refer to the rough edges and scratches as wabi-sabi? Would you be so forgiving if this were a Chinese plane? I don't mind the raw cast surfaces, either. LN have some surfaces left directly from casting as well, but they machine and smooth out more areas. It's not so much a critique of HE but more about pointing out the differences and explaining why a particular plane may be more expensive than another. LN is perceived to be expensive, and I try to explain why that is by pointing out the extra care and attention to detail that goes into with their planes, e.g. softening edges, lapping/sanding the face of the fence to remove milling marks, chamfering holes to remove burr, higher machining tolerances, more machined and polished surfaces, etc. All of this is an additional process requiring more labour and possibly another tool/machine and that all adds to the price of the tool.
As I said in my post, the defects weren't deal-breakers for me and I was prepared to live with it the way it was. The pitting on the knuckle cap don't affect its functionality or comfortness. I would have simply filed down the sharp corners and edges and used the plane normally. I wouldn't have even shared my thoughts on the plane, or done my comparison, if I hadn't been asked to do so by a fellow forum member. So you see, I'm not looking for perfection.
Some may say it's unfair to compare the HE with the LN because HE is a much smaller operation, but the reality is customers compare planes that are in the same price bracket. The LN RBP is around $319 (or so I'm told), and the HE is $339 ($419 with the fence). That puts them in the same category and natural competitors.
BTW, I liked the Aliens reference.
Cheers,
Mike
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