Thread: Record 311 bullnose / shoulder plane

Have you considered woodies? Skew bladed shoulder planes are easily acquired and generally don’t go for much higher than $20. You can also pick up wooden dado planes for not that much more.

Originally Posted by delbs

...Luban looked ok also...

Yebbit who wants to support the Chinese economy in the current international climate anyway?

Cheers, Vann.

At the cost of these record planes all things considered I'd prefer to support more locally like HNT

1/2" Shoulder Plane – HNT Gordon & Co. Classic Planemakers Australia

Hmmm wonder if they'll have a Xmas sale

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Originally Posted by Chief Tiff

Have you considered woodies? Skew bladed shoulder planes are easily acquired and generally don’t go for much higher than $20. You can also pick up wooden dado planes for not that much more.

Chief, in my experience, there is a world of difference between a wooden rebate plane, skewed blade notwithstanding, and a low-angle, BU shoulder plane when it comes to planing end grain. Years ago, I bought a 1/2" HNT Gordon "shoulder plane". It was fine cutting long grain, but it really wasn't the best "shoulder" plane, partly due to its comparatively light weight (despite having a gidgee body), and partly to the high cutting angle. Out of curiosity more than anything else, I made my own 1/2", with a bed angle of 15*. It's a little heavier than the HNT (~350g, can't remember what the HNT weighed) and there was not all that much difference when planing long grain, but a big difference in the way it handled end grain. I almost never used the HNT after that, so it's gone to a new home where it can get a bit more love & attention.

The little plane is very handy for small jobs, (like trimming the stuffing for a small infill): preparing stuffing.jpg

..but for real work, I go for its big brother, which at 2.5Kg is a "proper" shoulder plane like the infill SPs of the century before last: Lge & Sm.jpg

With so much heft, it just sits on the work & slices end grain like butter.

Delbs, I should warn you that a shoulder plane may not turn out to be the wonder tool you expect. I lusted after a 311 or the larger Record/Preston style back in my early days, but the tool budget was too tight & there were too many other tools in the queue ahead of a SP. I was so sure a SP would make my life better that I eventually made my own (not the one in the pic above, but similar in concept). It turned out a good plane, but it didn't get as much use as I expected. One reason is that it's not easy to plane a short shoulder, you have to be very careful to keep the plane level or you'll plane a convex, just as you can with a bench plane when planing a very short piece. Another reason is that you often need to back the exit side of the cut with a sacrificial piece to avoid spelching - depends on the wood, some you'll get away without backing, some will spelch like fury if you don't. Depending on the size/shape of the piece you are working on, it can be a fiddle & a nuisance having to set it up with a backing piece, holding it in the right place as you clamp it all up in the vise.

In practice, it's often easier & just as quick to saw a narrow tenon shoulder close to the scribe line, then cut it to the line with a few overlapping cuts using a wide, sharp chisel. For sub-furniture-grade tenons like on my work bench, I just saw to the line for the tenons. A good saw that enables you to reliably cut bang on a line will serve you very well here. I don't think you'd find any significant gaps on my workbench but if you do, I'll wear it, it's only a work bench...

For narrow-ish tenons, you are more likely to get a cleaner, straighter shoulder with a wide chisel than by trying to plane it. Where the SP comes into its own is in cleaning up long shoulders, then it can be a boon. In truth, if your joinery involves a lot of sliding dovetails & dados, you'll probably get more use out of a router plane or a side-rebate than a SP.

Just my 2c...
Cheers,

Your 2c should be $2 worth instead Ian, always great advice thanks for your insight.

So if I read it right your saying if I use the likes of a marking knife and chisel out to create a wall and appropriate saws then sharp chisels I can do most of the shoulder planes job?

I have been researching and found some articles and YouTube videos that give the message that shoulder planes arent as necessary as marketing teams make them out to be and often are left gathering dust.

I do have a Stanley router plane with the pointed and flat veritas cutters.

Very impressive shoulder planes you've made. Do you have the likes of a metal lathe to turn your own threads and knurled ends etc or buy them as kits for shoulder planes?

Cheers
Nathan

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Originally Posted by delbs

....So if I read it right your saying if I use the likes of a marking knife and chisel out to create a wall and appropriate saws then sharp chisels I can do most of the shoulder planes job?.....

Yep, and often quicker and safer than planing, particularly if you are using a wood that wants to spelch (as many do!).

Originally Posted by delbs

....I have been researching and found some articles and YouTube videos that give the message that shoulder planes arent as necessary as marketing teams make them out to be and often are left gathering dust....

Yep.

Originally Posted by delbs

.... Very impressive shoulder planes you've made. Do you have the likes of a metal lathe to turn your own threads and knurled ends etc or buy them as kits for shoulder planes? ......

Yes, Nathan, I do have a small metal lathe & my planes are all made from scratch. As far as I'm aware, there are no kits available for laminated shoulder planes, St. James Bay Tool Co. used to do a cast body for a shoulder lane, but looking at their website just now I can't see it listed as being on offer any more (it's still appearing in the group shot of their wares). Perhaps it wasn't a big seller, finishing a cast SP would be a pretty daunting task for a first project! The lamination technique is far esier & well within the grasp of a first timer & needs only basic hand tools. You can keep it simple and use a plain wedge, and you really don't need a screw adjuster on a shoulder plane, these are 'set once & forget' tools. I only add such "refinements" because I can.

I wrote up my method for making a shoulder plane in AWR #99 (p40-) and have expanded on that pretty brief article in my "manual" which is yours for sending me a PM with an email address (can't attach files to PMs so need a regular email to send it).

You know, I'm going to sound like a complete hypocrite, but you really don't need a closet full of high-end tools to make stuff to a very high standard. I made some of my best furniture with a set of tools that would probably set you laughing your head off. Its ironic, but now that I have nice tools that I love to work with, I have fewer challenging projects to use them on - I've long since built all the furniture our house needs and my kids aren't all that interested in fancy furniture. So tool-making itself has become a bit of a hobby obsession. The most challenging "commission" I have for 2021 is a 1/12 scale doll house complete with high-style Georgian furniture, that'll keep me busy for quite a while, & who knows? I might have to make some very small tools to make the very small items..

I say this to lots of folks starting out - there is nothing wrong with acquiring topnotch tools, but you should be honest with yourself about your motives. Are you simply being sucked-in by gorgeous catalogue pics, or are you acquiring tools you actually need to make whatever it is you're making? The best way to build up a tool kit is to buy or make tools only as a direct need arises. If there is a need for a particular type of tool & if you can afford "top of the range", go for it, few of us ever regret buying top quality if it was something we really needed & will go on using regularly. But sometimes, lesser quality will do the job, albeit after a bit of fettling (more useful lessons learnt!) & maybe not quite as efficiently as the one many times the price, but hey, we're amateurs having fun so if a job takes a little longer, that's simply more fun had...

I do highly recommend making tools if you are the least inclined, because even though you may not make competition winners on your first attempt, it will deepen your understanding & you'll get better & better at using them. I don't have any pictures of my very early efforts (& not sure I'd show them if I did ), but we all have to start somewhere. These days, there is so much help & advise at your fingertips (literally!), most people can probably make a pretty good fist of their first attempts.

Apologies if that was a bit long-winded....
Cheers,

Hi Nathan,

While the others have made some good points, the Record shoulder planes are generally really nice tools to use and own. I have a couple of them and they have been very useful for a wide variety of jobs over the years. while a combination of other tools might work well enough, you could probably save some cash without one. But they are seriously nice tools and even better if you can get them at a good price. While cheaper would be better $200 for a 311 would be ok.

Would suggest that if you are looking at the 311 then just make sure the front section aligns properly (which normally it should) but you never know. Also useful to have the bullnose attachment which tends to get lost, so many tend to come without.

The 311 is ok for rebates etc but a bit wide for daddos - but that just means you can get another narrower record shoulder plane - a 042 (3/4") is a good width or the 041 is 5/8. They all have their uses.

cheers

Clifton 3110
Excellent quality and works great. No I'm not selling mine. I prefer and find this shoulder plane body design easy to hold.
Used tools can be great when the price is right.
Just make sure its not missing parts.
The thin shims to adjust the mouth opening can be made at home with a little effort if needed.
Also look for a replacement cutter or iron before purchasing.
Sometimes used or obsolete plane parts are being sold at extreme prices.
For daily use I generally purchase new hand planes when affordable.
I sometimes purchase used planes when they are in excellent condition.

I have a 3 in 1 shoulder plane (Quengshang-noname) and while it works great I have not really needed the other 2 functions. I have tried them out and guess the bullnose may come into its own if I ever need it and a chisel does a better job than a chisel plane because it has a decent handle to lean a bit of weight on. At the time I thought 3 tools in one has to be a bargin.
Thats my take on it so just wondering who regularly uses all 3 functions.
Regards
John

Originally Posted by orraloon

I have a 3 in 1 shoulder plane (Quengshang-noname) and while it works great I have not really needed the other 2 functions. I have tried them out and guess the bullnose may come into its own if I ever need it and a chisel does a better job than a chisel plane because it has a decent handle to lean a bit of weight on. At the time I thought 3 tools in one has to be a bargin.
Thats my take on it so just wondering who regularly uses all 3 functions.
Regards
John

No - I've never owned a 3-in-1.
My experience is a bit like yours.
I have a shoulder plane that gets a fair bit of use, a bullnose plane that gets very little use and a long paring chisel does the rest most of the time.
I would venture to suggest that owners of 3-in-1's use the shoulder plane function 99% of the time
Tom

Originally Posted by Scribbly Gum

No - I've never owned a 3-in-1.
My experience is a bit like yours.
I have a shoulder plane that gets a fair bit of use, a bullnose plane that gets very little use and a long paring chisel does the rest most of the time.
I would venture to suggest that owners of 3-in-1's use the shoulder plane function 99% of the time
Tom

Hi all,
I have a Record 311 unused in original box and a Record 073
also unused in box which my father bought way back. He bought
tools but just put them away. Also a Clifton 410 which is a nice plane.
Will post a picture of the Record 073

Martin.

I leave this inexpensive #28 3 in 1 assembled as a bullnose plane.
Notice the difference in the lever cap handle length.
The longer lever cap may be what is called a squirrel tail.
The medium size Stanley shoulder plane is used a lot too.
My favorite bullnose plane is the Record 077
The tenon sizes being planed or shaved will help you decide what length and width shoulder plane to select.

Editing time ran out.
A shoulder plane is best for trimming the tenon joint shoulder.
A router plane works better for the tenon joint cheeks.
A new Clifton 3110 here is $274.99 USD I'm not sure about prices in other countries.
Make sure a used plane can be returned if necessary.
Sometimes a 3 in 1 plane is dropped onto the floor and cracked or broken.
Occasionally people will buy used parts. The 2 halves of a 3 in one plane may be from 2 planes.
The plane parts need to fit together and align perfectly for it to function properly.

Originally Posted by woodhog

...A new Clifton 3110 here is $274.99 USD...

You don't say where "here" is:

Your location is "n/a". You mention USD, so I assume you might be in the States, but as this is an Aussie forum you would be more helpful if you clarified your location. Is it $274 USD if ordered in Australia, including postage from the US?

More clarity please.

Cheers, Vann.