Thread: Example of filing saws without jointing

Either that or the previous owner had mastered the technique of stop jointing!

Interesting - as you say, Peter, the teeth look pretty level up to that last couple. It's not uncommon to see odd-looking last teeth on saws, because if the heel is shaped, it means the last tooth is going to change width as the saw wears down, but this one has a whole tooth's worth of hook. Is it possible it's been machine-sharpened, and the machine couldn't reach the last bit near the handle? That could explain things. There are probably people who can file a saw straight without needing to level the teeth first, but it would take me at least another 50 years to learn to do that. I don't think I have quite that much time left...

That last inch or so on any saw is a bit of a pita, I reckon. Even with the most careful stroking, one rarely engages any teeth back there, yet I always sharpen them just as carefully as the rest of the saw. This isn't always easy, as the jaws of most saw vises won't reach to the edge of small or worn saws without removing the handle, so the last 10mm or more is often waving in the breeze & consequently difficult to file. I often ask myself "why am I bothering?". I don't get a very satisfactory answer from myself, I have to say. The best I can come up with is that it's a kind of check on the quality of the sharpening job. Saws get badly damaged at times, but at least you can point to the heel end and say "well, it started out ok...!".

Cheers,

One set of reading I did somewhere suggested filing from the heel to the toe so that as you "get your eye in" you're starting with the least used area.
Cheers,
Paul

Originally Posted by pmcgee

One set of reading I did somewhere suggested filing from the heel to the toe so that as you "get your eye in" you're starting with the least used area.
Cheers,
Paul

That's my preferred direction. Heel to toe.

Stewie;

I've always begun at the handle end because it just seemed 'natural' to me to start there. So now I have a reason, if anyone ever asks why....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

I've always begun at the handle end because it just seemed 'natural' to me to start there. So now I have a reason, if anyone ever asks why....

Cheers,

Hi Ian. I agree with you on the possibility that this saw has had the teeth reshaped a number of times by machine. It seems the only logical explanation for why the 1st tooth at the heel end of the tooth line could have been left that way. If it had been hand sharpened, the flat file direction during jointing starts at the heel end of the tooth line.

Stewie;

But as Peter suggested, it could just be filed, without jointing ... just get in there with the file.

Not sure from a quick look, but I think the tooth sizes are a bit varied ... and maybe not all on the one level.

Cheers,
Paul

Originally Posted by pmcgee

One set of reading I did somewhere suggested filing from the heel to the toe so that as you "get your eye in" you're starting with the least used area.
Cheers,
Paul

Paul

The 1914 Disston Handbook of Saws recommends filing from the heel to the toe. They have quite a bit to justify this direction, but I won't bore you with all that.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Paul

The 1914 Disston Handbook of Saws recommends filing from the heel to the toe. They have quite a bit to justify this direction, but I won't bore you with all that....

Paul, by co-incidence, I was thinking about this very question yesterday whilst toothing a saw. I've always filed heel to toe, entirely because the first person I saw sharpen a saw (my father) did it that way. Not being very imaginative, & reinforced by numerous illustrations in filing manuals, etc., I have always followed suit. Anyway, yesterday, I began pondering why this should be the 'norm' when our natural tendency is to work from left to right. Working right to left makes it a bit awkward because you can't see the next gullet you are going to place the file in, but it does allow you to see the bits you've done, so if you accidentally skip a tooth, it is usually obvious. But for two parts of the process, I prefer to work left to right. One is the final very light pass I like to give each tooth to leave as smooth a surface as possible , & the other is when forming teeth. After the last pass, I go back along the tooth line at the end checking all the flats have gone, and giving a light lick to any that haven't formed a sharp edge. Both these operations I find easier to do left to right, particularly the latter, because you get a clear view and can judge which gullet (i.e. the one before or after the flat) is the shallow one by the widths at the top.

So hoping to have the matter settled by overwhelming logic, I found a copy of the handbook online & found the section to which you refer (I think - page 37). However, the justifications they give for heel to toe filing seem largely spurious to me. For starters, it is rambling on about one direction forcing you to file against the set of the leading edge of the tooth. Hey, Smokey - ever thought of simply turning the saw the other way to solve that problem????

The other main justification they give is that it allows you to change the angle of the leading vs the trailing edge on a crosscut saw. This one I simply don't get at all. A standard 3-corner file cuts both the leading (or trailing, depending on your choice) and trailing edges in each gullet simultaneously, and in my trigonometry, the angle imparted to one has to be the same as for the other. This has to be, whatever direction you are working in, unless you go back and file one edge only, with a file that has a corner of less than 60 degrees. Or did Mr. Disston manage to change the rules of Euclidian geometry in some magic way? Please explain.

Cheers,

Ian

Full marks. Page 37 it was .

I agree that the justification was a little airy fairy, which was another reason I didn't labour the point. As I have been typing it has just occurred to me that with a chainsaw I sharpen from the toe towards the motor. Hmmm.

Just as an aside on these old handbooks (I have quite a few of them on a CD I purchased for about $12) I found a reference to the angled or sloped gullets. Quite a few people have commented that the old saw vices were hinged and what was the purpose of that unless it was to lay the saw plate away from you during the sharpening process. That way a deeper gullet would be achieved while still holding the saw horizontal: Much easier than trying to maintain yet another angle with a hand held file.

The book, actually really only a twelve page leaflet, was a Disston publication of 1875, "The Handsaw."

" A fast cutting crosscut saw should have deep teeth. To make them deep they must be filed on an angle; to do this to advantage, the clamp (see engraving) should be used, and thus a deep gullet tooth can be filed as readily as a square bottom tooth."

I failed miserable to transfer from the disc so I have just typed the copy.

I am not sure when machine sharpening was widely employed, but the supposition is that at some time in the late 19th century most references to hand sharpening with the file held low disappeared. I am guessing it was hardly productive for the manufacturers to admit they might not be sharpening their brand new saws the best way possible.

However, that is all conjecture and by no means proven to being a superior method.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

...... with a chainsaw I sharpen from the toe towards the motor. Hmmm.....

Yep, I usually do, too. At least we're consistently inconsistent!

Was working on a couple more saws today, so I paid particular attention to which direction I was working in and whether there seemed to be any particular advantage in going one way vs the opposite direction. As we've been discussing, I have always begun with the handle to my right, and filed from handle to toe, which means I'm working left to right. When I switch the saw vice round to do the other side, the handle is now to the left, & I work back from handle to toe again, which means now I'm working left to right.

Don't know if it's the cold I've had for the last few days affecting my eyesight, or whether I need to visit the optometrist sooner than my scheduled checkup, but I was having real trouble seeing what I was doing today. I had to use an extra desk-lamp to light the job (normally, the two sets of double fluoros above the bench plus daylight are adequate). With the desk-light angled just-so, I could see the flats clearly, but it took some fiddling to get it in the right position. To change working direction, I would have had to switch the light to the other side, or my hands & the file would shade it. Having to drag the light across the bench & muck about to get the angle right again each time I turned the saw round seemed like more trouble than leaving the light in place & just working in the same direction on each side, So that's what I did, & I found it much easier to see what I was doing, & it didn't make any difference to the finished product, so I think I will reconfigure my brain to work left to right on both sides of the saw in future, & not worry about whether I'm working from heel to toe or vice versa. I think the main thing when sharpening saws is to adopt a comfortable stance, and maintain consistency of strokes from one end to the other, & that's easier to achieve when you can clearly see what you're doing!

Cheers,