Thread: Request for help: Record 078/778 depth stop clamping screw size

Hi Bill. I just measured mine, and it seems to be 3/16 x 24 BSW (which is the same as the thumbscrews which lock the fence onto the rods, and the actual thumbscrew also looks almost identical to the ones on the fence). It fits well, and tightens as it should.

But I note that you said that a #10(UNC) wouldn't fit - which it SHOULD into a 3/16BSW, given that the tolerances are not usually super close. So I guess it is possible that a previous owner of my 778 may have lost his original bolt for the depth stop, and forced or re-tapped a spare fence screw in there? Do YOUR fence screws fit into your depth stop female thread?

Bruce, old man,

Thanks for the quick reply. On mine, the fence screws do fit, yes. When I said "wouldn't fit": the coarse #10 (24 threads per inch) would start and then jam; the fine #10 (32 threads per inch) was reluctant to start. This is consistent with what I've seen before. But it sounds like, if I retap the hole with a #10-24 tap, an American machine screw will fit, which is good - it's much easier to find coarse thread thumbscrews than to find fine-thread screws here in the U.S.

I'll probably wind up with a "spade head" thumb screw, like those used on Stanley rabbet planes (78, 190 series, etc.), which works fine.

So many thanks! You've helped me resolve this problem without spending vast sums on postage buying from a U.K. tool source, if I could even find a factory thumbscrew.

Hi Bill: I would be a lot more comfortable with my information, if the screw I had holding my depth stop was a shouldered spade-head thumb screw, which would look more like I would imagine the original one would have. The knurled cheese-head one that I have just leaves me with vague suspicions about what a previous owner MAY have done, to make it fit. But there is no question that it currently works (on mine), and holds like it is supposed to. You might like to wait a couple of days for other forum experts to chime in, which (if they confirmed my measurements) would mean that you are not relying on a single other tool on the other side of the world. Good luck!

With some more fooling around, I discovered that I'd been testing the hole's compatibility with American #10 screws with fine thread only; once I dug out a #10-24 screw, it fit just fine. Now to find the needed retaining screw (spade head shouldered thumbscrew, not a hardware store item, although I think I have a line on a source).

Hi Bill;

The central screw on Record and Stanley spokeshave caps use the same basic knurled cheese headed screw if you want your 778 to look authentic-ish. You’ll may find too that Record actually used Unified rather than Whit threads; they slavishly copied Stanley’s every move including the weird and wonderful non-standard threads used on their bench planes. My 1970’s 778 has the depth stop and fence screws all of the same type.

Looks, from one of the online sources on Record Planes, like Record did the same thing Stanley did: spade-head shouldered screw at some points in its history, cheese-head screws at other times: Record Planes - Information and identification of Record Planes & Spokeshaves For Stanley, the spade head was earlier, and I find it way, way better for getting the screw tight, so that's what I'll seek out.

Hi Bill: Thanks for the new reference site for Record planes - I had not previously found this one. And as a quick request: If you DO find an online source for the spade head screws in this size, I would appreciate your posting it: If it is a US site, the postage will be prohibitively expensive, but sites elsewhere in the world might offer an option for us down under, trying to find small parts/fasteners for old planes.

Originally Posted by oldBruce

If you DO find an online source for the spade head screws in this size, I would appreciate your posting it...

Two American companies list shouldered spade head thumbscrews in various sizes: Bolt Depot (Thumb screws, Spade type with shoulder - Bolt Depot) and Fastenal (Fastenal Industrial Supplies, OEM Fasteners, Safety Products & More). I found those fairly easily; there may be others. The individual price is very low; even for me, shipping will be the big cost.

Now, if I could just find the actual depth stop. I think I can adapt one from a Stanley easily enough, so will be looking for a Stanley stop at an affordable cost.

Hi Bill: Just as a note of caution when hunting out a depth s While Stanley was fairly consistent with the geometry of their depth stops, Record had some variance over the years, with the result that Stanley depth stops (and even some Record depth stops) do not necessarily fit all Record 778s. As an illustration, I have enclosed some photos of a Record and a Stanley depth stop. Although they are roughly the same in external dimensions, the raised ridge which fits into the V-groove in the plane body is larger (the groove on SOME Record planes is also correspondingly larger), and located closer to the central slot in the depth stop. The second picture illustrates the problem that this can create: it is a photo of a Stanley depth stop on a Record 778: the screw which locks the depth stop does not fit through the depth stop when the ridge is fully engaged in the V-track.
IMG_7036.JPGIMG_7037.JPG
However, this does not apply to ALL 778s, or ALL depth stops - I have one Stanley depth-stop that sort-of works on the 778. However, just as a note of caution: you may like to take your plane with you, when you are checking for a depth stop that fits, to ensure you are happy that it can be made to work. Alternatively, there is the option of making your own depth stop - I have had some success by starting with 60mm x 60mm x 6mm steel angle - but then, I have a small milling machine so that I can cut the ridge where it best suits the plane, so that is not a solution for everyone...

Thanks. I am aware of that issue. I've tested a Stanley depth stop in it, and found that the ridge fits the groove, and that, as in your example, the clamping screw is not centered in the slot. I'm thinking that's why files were created, although I'll likely need a good-sized washer, too, to bridge the slot.

But, if I could find an affordable Record example...I could contact some of the British tool sellers, but fear that the postage would make the depth stop more expensive than the plane was.

Sorry all - just correcting my dimensions above: Obviously you can start with smaller steel angle if you want to make your own depth stops - even as small as 45mm x 45mm x 6mm, but it has to be 6mm to enable high enough ridges in the back. I enclose a photo of my last efforts - you can still see some machining marks under the paint, and they are steel, not cast iron, but otherwise they are passable copies, and certainly work fine for a user plane. Now I just have to figure out if 3 hours of my time on a milling machine was worthwhile, just because I wanted a slightly better fit on a couple of old planes.
IMG_7043.JPG

Originally Posted by oldBruce

...... Now I just have to figure out if 3 hours of my time on a milling machine was worthwhile, just because I wanted a slightly better fit on a couple of old planes. .....

Of course it is! Fixing an old tool to a high standard like that has got to be worth something - the satisfaction of doing it would be compensation enough for me....

I reckon it would be do-able with hand tools if you were really determined. I was contemplating making one for myself a few years ago, but stumbled on an original in a tin full of junk when we were cleaning out FIL's shed, so promptly put that idea out of mind. The little ridge on the back is the main problem, but there are a couple of ways I can think of to achieve it. One way involves some careful (& tedious) hacksaw & file work, which I'm far less enthusiastic about now than I was 20 years ago. Another would be to add the registering ridge by silver-soldering a strip on & trimming to a good fit. If you were not attempting to make a reasonably close facsimile of the original, you could use brass instead of steel - much easier to work by hand & plenty stiff enough in that application....

Cheers,

My old mate dropped by on the weekend, bearing a gift - a near-complete 778, but missing the accursed depth stop.

The plane was very grubby & all the bare metal surfaces had a fine fuzz of rust, but the paintwork is about 75% intact & it cleaned up easily, except for the blade, which has been sharpened repeatedly on a dished stone & wass horribly convex. I spent a lot of time on it this afternoon & got it usable, but I reckon there's another hour of work to get it truly flat right across the leading edge. I made a wooden slip to attach to the fence & spent about 10 minutes trying to find a screw size to fit the holes in the fence. Finally, by cleaning out the holes better & taking it out into strong light, I realised they aren't threaded - just holes!

Well, they were just the right size for a 5mm tap, so I tapped them. Much easier to use screws into fixed holes & not have to fiddle with nuts & bolts (& fewer small bits to drop in the shavings!):
Rec 778 a.jpg


Now, about that darned depth-stop screw:
Rec 778 c.jpg

I tried both a fine (32) & coarse (24) 3/16 tap & neither seemed to want to start comfortably - both went in about a turn & a half & stopped. There is a goodly build-up of rust in the thread, and I suspect that's got a lot to do with why neither seems to fit. I tried the screw from my Stanley 78 & it didn't want to go in either (but the depth-stop itself engages the groove with the slot centred over the screw-hole, so I have my template sorted).

Since the general consensus is that it IS 5/32-24, I'll get a bit more forceful with the appropriate tap. It's a wincey little screw anyway, so if the tap isn't correct & wrecks the thread I'll just drill the thing out & use a larger tap. I'd prefer to keep it as original as possible for the sake of future owners, so I'll proceed with some caution. I could muck about making a spade-head screw for it, but all the other thumbscrews on the plane are either straight-knurled "cheese-heads" or diamond-knurled ditto, and imo, a spade-head would look like an odd anachronism..

Unfortunately, I don't have access to a mill, so I'm going to have to put money where mouth is & start some tedious filing & hacksawing. I will start with steel because brass would look a bit tizzy, but brass sure would be easier...

Cheers,

In the clear light of morning I re-tried my taps & I don't know what I was doing the evening before, but the depth-stop screw is definitely 3/16 NC (24tpi), I screwed in a tap with my fingers. As Chief Tiff says, Record was so slavish in their copying they used the U.S. thread form (3/16 BSW is 26 tpi) but luckily I have both fine & coarse 'unified' taps & dies in that size (probably only the 2nd time I've used it in 30 years!). So that was very easily sorted & it took just a few minutes to make a suitable screw for it. I elected to go with a straight-knurled knob rather than the flat oval type, it matches the rest of the thumbscrews nicely, except for the depth-adjuster, which for some reason has a diamond knurl!?:

3 DS screw.jpg

I thought I would just transfer the wooden knob I made for my old 78 (I find it extremely handy). It looked like it would fit straight on, but not so - the nose casting of the 778 is just a bit different & the lower web reinforcing the nose piece sticks out quite a bit more so I would have had to modify my old knob. Instead, I just made a new one, which took a lot of fiddling to get it to fit neatly & not foul on that projecting bit of the nose casting - don't remember the Stanley taking me anywhere near as long to fit. But I eventually got a nice solid fit (yes, that's a bit of ebony, which is a bit like putting lipstick on a pig but I wanted to see how the piece I bought at the Maleny show scrubbed up!) :
1 New knob.jpg.

As others have found, the Stanley depth stop won't fit unless you enlarge the slot:
2 Stanley DS.jpg

So I'll have to make a new one, but I rarely use a depth-stop anyway, I usually just work to a gauged line, so it may be a while before I get the round tuit for that job.

Next problem, the neat storage solution I'd devised for the old 78 was not suitable for the full fence & longer rods of the 778:
4 Old storage box.jpg

So I made a little drawer that holds the auxillary bits & bobs:
5 Bits storage.jpg

This slides in snugly beside the plane, and I attached a little shelf above the plane box for the fence (which made a perfect niche above that for my chair-seat plane):
6 Stowed a.jpg

And it all fits nicely behind the ramp for my #7 :
7 Stowed b.jpg

It means an extra step to get the hidden planes out, but they're not tools I use every day (or even every week) so I don't think that will bother me. I just hope that it's obvious that all the bits belong together & it should be easy enough even for someone who knows nothing whatever about planes to realise that. The bits for the 78 were all there, too, but scattered around FIL's shed in all sorts of odd places. Had I not been on the ball the day we were cleaning it out, the fence & DS for that would now be resting quietly in landfill!

Cheers,