Thread: Restoring a Handsaw or Three

Originally Posted by Simplicity

With Regards to the boiling of a saw,
Do you have to say any rhyming words while the boiling is happening, also do you need to add anything organic to the water, such as a leg of Toad or blood of Bat.

Most importantly it has to be distilled water - any impurities will not allow the black oxide to form properly.

Boiling is only 100ºC or in the case of Toowomba because of the altitude it will be about 98ºC

Most tempering of wood working tool steels starts around 200ºC for a light yellow. Some tempering can be done as low as 150 or even 125ºC but for this to have a lasting effect it has to be done for a long time so I doubt 100ºC for 10 minutes will have any affect.

This bluing/blackening process involving boiling has medieval origin and was performed on some weapons and armour of the best warriors which would not have wanted the metal to lose its strength/hardness.

Originally Posted by BobL

Most importantly it has to be distilled water - any impurities will not allow the black oxide to form properly.

Boiling is only 100ºC or in the case of Toowomba because of the altitude it will be about 98ºC

Most tempering of wood working tool steels starts around 200ºC for a light yellow. Some tempering can be done as low as 150 or even 125ºC but for this to have a lasting effect it has to be done for a long time so I doubt 100ºC for 10 minutes will have any affect.

This bluing/blackening process involving boiling has medieval origin and was performed on some weapons and armour of the best warriors which would not have wanted the metal to lose its strength/hardness.

Bob

I appreciate boiling point is probably nowhere near a critical temp for drawing the temp of steel. However, I am not going to do it. Primarily because I see it as a slightly awkward process and something that I can get around in at least one other way.

You may recall from your visit here we are 80km from Toowoomba with it's elevation of 691m. At Millmerran we are between 408m and 466m. As we are near the creek I am going to put my hand up for 410m and in doing so reveal the facetious side of my nature.

Regards
Paul

I have to go back to the shed and get a bit more done. I have done my usual trick of having three projects on the go contemporaneously!! I am just waiting for the rain to subside. This is the seventh time today by my count: It has totaled about five minutes and a level of precipitation that still has not registered in the rain gauge!!

Just for those of you who have lost count and for some justification of my mean approach to W&D paper, I have so far used 1½ sheets. Not too bad.

As it is still raining, some more information. One of the hardest parts of the blade to clean is the toothline. Big teeth are the worst of all. A lot of the tooth on this saw will disappear with the jointing and sharpening processes so I have no worried unduly.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Not really Matt

I just see a deal of toil and trouble on the hill. Double trouble perhaps?

When will these three saws meet again? Surely not til the hurlyburly’s done..

Regards
Paul

By the pricking of my thumbs; poorly paraphrasing the Scottish Play will surely tempt ill fortune. You must immediately counteract the curse by running thrice around the shed clad only in undergarments whilst uttering the phrase: “Emerpus era ybros tub ko era notssid” backwards.

Originally Posted by Chief Tiff

By the pricking of my thumbs; poorly paraphrasing the Scottish Play will surely tempt ill fortune. You must immediately counteract the curse by running thrice around the shed clad only in undergarments whilst uttering the phrase: “Emerpus era ybros tub ko era notssid” backwards.

Chief

I think you may be confusing Billy S with Lenny daV (was Lenny from der Bronx?)



Regards
Paul

Ps: We will see how good a Sorby is when it is all fancied up, sports a handle and is sharp.

OK men and ladies: A change of plan

The other old saw was a whole 30" long so a biggie. Although such saws were always offered, in practice we don't see too many of them. Plus I thought that is an awful lot of teeth for a demonstration so I will pass on that one and tackle it another day.

The other saw with the lambs tongue handle was a Simonds and I had a particular task for it, but there was a problem: It wasn't quite right. Ostensibly I wanted a skewback Simonds saw for a special project. This saw fitted the bill until I looked more closely. Simonds only ever made two models with a lambs tongue handle and only between 1900 and 1905 (by the 1907 catalogue the lambs tongue was gone), the No.9 and the No.10. The difference was that the No.9 has an Apple handle and the No.10 a Beech handle. Both saws at that time were a straightback. It did change later.

P1060803 (Medium).JPG

The crescent moon and star medallion is correct for the handle (it is Beech meaning it belongs to a No.10) so that is likely correct, but inspection with the screws removed showed one does not engage the plate at all

P1060804 (Medium).JPG
so the plate is wrong because it is a skewback (curved) and in the absence of an etch I can't even say who the manufacturer is.

P1060806 (Medium).JPG

Under the circumstances I decided to discard that. I do have another bare blade somewhere, but for the moment I cannot find it. The project is to make up a Simonds No.56, which is similar to Disston's Compact (toolbox) saw shown below

P1060808 (Medium).JPG

This is what it looks like under the handle. As you can see, the world's foremost manufacturer could still make a stuff up with the best of them (bottom hole had cut the plate and I think the screw had missed completely.)

P1060809 (Medium).JPG

I then went looking for a third saw and came up with a Disston No.12 with issues. I intend this for yet another project and the intention is for a display saw. The issues are an abbreviated top horn and a horrible hole in the toe. If I was in the US in one of the hillbilly states I would select a suitable weapon from my arsenal, find the culprit who performed this abomination and shoot him. However, being a mild mannered Queenslander with only a shanghai I will not be doing this.

P1060810 (Medium).JPGP1060811 (Medium).JPGP1060812 (Medium).JPGP1060813 (Medium).JPG

For many years, until the advent of the D115 in 1914, Disston's No.12 was the flagship model. It was a big saw about 7+" deep at the heel and made, according to Disston, from specially selected plates. It used Extra refined London steel and had a high degree of taper grinding. It is still a revered saw. This saw ranges from 0.036" at the toothline down to .020" at the top of the toe. It is 7ppi

I will document the rehabilitation process on this one in the next post.

Regards
Paul

To refresh the minds of those with the memory of a goldfish (if you are offended by that, don't be. It is actually about three months. I have verified that in person with my fish ) this is the saw in question:

P1060810 (Medium).JPG

This is just to show the size of screw driver, which matches the saw screw exactly.

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When the handle was removed I checked in the top right hand corner for the "X" which all No.12s have. I think it stands for extra refined

P1060816 (Medium).JPG

Something I should have mentioned before is that if you are a hand model, have allergic reactions or skin allergies you may want to wear some gloves. I use these nitrile gloves. I don't have any of those aforementioned issues, but SWMBO won't let me hold her hand if my hands are disgustingly dirty

P1060818 (Medium).JPG

here we are ready to go

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Another thing I forgot to mention before is that whether drilled or punched the plates often have a burr. It can be removed with a twist bit just held in the hand. If you don't do this the W&D will be ripped by the protruding edge.

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This was after only two strips of 240g W&D had been used

P1060821 (Medium).JPG

Immediately there is an obvious issue in that the dark line indicates a depression

P1060825 (Medium).JPG

and on the other side a corresponding bump with a bright spot. there is also some unevenness around the hole in the toe

P1060823 (Medium).JPGP1060824 (Medium).JPG

I will have to deal with that tomorrow. I ended up using seven strips of 240g but will show pix tomorrow as it was dark by the time I had finished. I have only improvised lights, which make pix a little awkward. This is how I use the narrow edge of the sanding block at the toothline.


P1060826 (Medium).JPG

Regards
Paul

This is how the plate looked after working with the 800g




P1060827 (Medium).JPGP1060828 (Medium).JPG

You can clearly see the black line caused but what might have been a bend or kink at some point So out with the dog hammer and improvised anvil.

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and this is it after working with the dog hammer and more work with the W&D. Getting there:

P1060830 (Medium).JPGP1060831 (Medium).JPG

More hammering and more rubbing

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I mentioned before that the teeth are an issue. Large teeth with too great a set, like the Sorby saw in the first posts, are a real issue. These teeth with only a small set are a little easier. I fold the W&D over a couple of times for thickness and slide the wad towards the toe, lift off an repeat.

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Always being super careful not to let this happen.

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The saw has been in the drying oven (formerly known as the kitchen oven) while I posted this update so I am off to remove it and take some pix.

Regards
Paul

This is Disston's No.12 not exactly restored to it's former glory but better than it was. This is after working through several grades of nearly two and a half sheets of W&D finishing with 2000g:

P1060837 (Medium).JPGP1060838 (Medium).JPGP1060843 (Medium).JPG

One of the problems of photographing a saw is that the higher the finish the more difficult it becomes as it reflects everything in front of it. There no dark patches. I can now see my face in the saw plate (I think that is the shadow in the middle pic above), but I have spared you a close and personal experience, preferring to work to rule instead:

P1060844 (Medium).JPGP1060845 (Medium).JPG

The Disston etches are pretty good (unlike Atkins etches to name one) and if care is taken it is not difficult to retain a good image. I went carefully with the coarse paper (240g) in the early stages, but with the finer grits you don't have to worry quite as much as they can't reach down into the shallow depression caused by the etching process and we are not going to use them so extensively.

P1060846 (Medium).JPG

All the pix in this thread are best viewed when clicked on as they are easily twice the size, but I don't needlessly want to occupy too much space so you can't see what is going on. Think of this pictorial display as the index.

Any questions?

Regards
Paul

Hi Paul, could you elaborate a bit on the Dog hammer and it’s usage please.

Originally Posted by Ironwood

Hi Paul, could you elaborate a bit on the Dog hammer and it’s usage please.

Brad

There were once three religious gentlemen, a priest, a rabbi and a vicar who all entered into a discussion about when life began. The catholic priest said vehemently "It is at the wonderful moment of conception." The rabbi immediately screws up his face and says " No, no, no it is when the baby. it is born." They than look at the vicar who announces "You have both got it wrong!"

"What?" they say in unison. How can that be? What else is there?"

The vicar stares them in the face and says "Life begins when the children leave home and the dog dies?"

Well. The children have left the nest and the dog dies some years ago so I have these hammers .



Apologies to the ecclesiastical among you. It is one of only two clean jokes I have so any opportunity to trot it out.

Dog hammers were the tools used for tensioning saw plates and were typically weighted quite unevenly compared to our usual metal working and woodworking types. This is an example from simonds:

Simonds Saw Makers Tools 1923.jpg

These are mine. I am fortunate to have a set that were made by Rob Streeper

Rob Streeper Dog Head hammers 001.jpg

As you can see they are heavily weighted to one side by design to be "let fall' rather than hit.

Rob Streeper Dog Head hammers 002.jpgRob Streeper Dog Head hammers 004.jpg

However few people can justify such tools so most seek out planishing hammers or other automotive type body tools. I recall that you have quite a few ballpein hammers so I would look to modify one of those perhaps. A little more curvature on the face is the order of the day.

The object is to move metal: Not deform it. However I will let people like Simplicity and IanW talk about moving the metal as they have more experience than me.

With this No.12 saw I needed to flatten the plate and I did this by alternating from one side to the other. It was relatively easy to see the depression on one side because of the dark patch where the block was skating above the metal, but on the other side where it needed to be struck it was more difficult. The bumps and depressions were barely detectable by hand. The main trick is not to be extreme and use many tiny blows rather than one almighty one that would make Thor envious. That reminds me of another story..... Oh, I can't tell that one

Does that help?

Regards
Paul

Interesting piece about the hammers. The way I have always taken kinks and bows out of sheet is by using a blacksmith’s flatter:

0D2C6A30-5894-4A10-8B66-F3F4BC815DB9.jpeg 4DDC62EF-44B2-4EF4-BFBC-0E2F01B5BF5B.jpeg

The central line of the hump/raised side is marked in chalk; then the flatter is run down the line whilst being solidly spanked with a hefty hammer. If there is a fair amount of spring then dogging the metal down on either side of the line helps to contain the movement.

I’ll have to keep an eye out for one of these dog hammers; although the number of saws I’ll need to use it on is likely to be very minimal I can see other potential uses. And anyway; there’s always room for another tool in the shed...

I agree that the Thor joke may be inappropriate; I thuthpect it wouldn’t path the “will it offend a 9 YO girl” tetht.

Originally Posted by Chief Tiff

Interesting piece about the hammers. The way I have always taken kinks and bows out of sheet is by using a blacksmith’s flatter:

0D2C6A30-5894-4A10-8B66-F3F4BC815DB9.jpeg 4DDC62EF-44B2-4EF4-BFBC-0E2F01B5BF5B.jpeg

The central line of the hump/raised side is marked in chalk; then the flatter is run down the line whilst being solidly spanked with a hefty hammer. If there is a fair amount of spring then dogging the metal down on either side of the line helps to contain the movement.

I’ll have to keep an eye out for one of these dog hammers; although the number of saws I’ll need to use it on is likely to be very minimal I can see other potential uses. And anyway; there’s always room for another tool in the shed...

I agree that the Thor joke may be inappropriate; I thuthpect it wouldn’t path the “will it offend a 9 YO girl” tetht.

Chief

That blacksmith's tool would work providing it has a curved base. You absolutely do not want it to dig in.

Unfortunately the dog hammers don't come up too often and when they do they can be really expensive.

Shame about the Thor joke. I think you know it so it would have been both appropriate, as in a connection and inappropriate so far as juveniles are concerned.

Regards
Paul

I dug out this Simonds No.61, which I think was the first Simonds saw I collected. I have done this to demonstrate the unsatisfactory nature of cleaning by electrolysis for hand saws.

Simonds No.61.JPGSimonds No.61 etch.JPG

Citric acid is another method people use. It imparts a yellow hue to the metal. Don't get me wrong, they really do remove the rust even from the pitted surfaces, but the resultant finish is disappointing to put it euphemistically. I did once try to remove the grey surface with W&D. I couldn't.

Regards
Paul