Thread: Restoring a Handsaw or Three

Thanks Bushmiller

I'm particularly interested in this as I collected a few old saws (a couple a friend's grandfather's who was cleaning out). I sent them out for an initial sharpen (wasn't confident myself). I since doubted very much they were well properly sharpened but I also wonder what I should be doing with restoration more generally.

A particular Q about the rust. If there is a mostly black patina, I understand to be magnetite... what are the actual practical needs to clear it all off? Or is it advantageous to leave it, if it's black and stable?

One can see a problem that you don't want any oxidation transferring onto a workpiece and marring a nice surface. But on the other hand if rust was rubbing off, I wondered if it might be a problem that takes care of itself as anything that would rub off, will do so after a few efforts (and indeed would be no problem on a surface you're going to plane or could easily tidy-up after). Unlike a joinery saw, you're rarely going to leave something cut with a panel saw as-is.

With one of the saws I grabbed a piece of pine scrap and rubbed it on the sides to see if it did marr, and didn't notice anything.

Other than the laziness there was a nice little advantage in making it VERY easy to see what you're doing when sharpening, as new metal will really stick out.

Before I get into the business at hand, this is a good use for a rubbish chisel. Couldn't see it last night in the dark. I found it this morning. Modified for removing split nuts :

P1060802 (Medium).JPG

Ok so I kept going in the tender light of day with another four strips of 240g W&D. Then it was two strips of 400g followed by two of 800g and one of 1200g. The 1200g was only because a visitor to the house distracted me for a moment and I had left the saw plate wet! Really there was little point in going beyond 800g for this saw.

P1060782 (Medium).JPG

The reverse side had more pitting than the face side

P1060785 (Medium).JPGP1060787 (Medium).JPG

The stamp is now more prominent with Robt Sorby Sheffield, the three crowns , the 'Roo and cast steel all quite visible.

P1060786 (Medium).JPGP1060788 (Medium).JPG

Next job was to joint the blade. I could have used this which was made for several companies

P1060797 (Medium).JPG

or this by Pike

P1060798 (Medium).JPG

or this home made effort which I have documented somewhere, but will have to search for it

P1060799 (Medium).JPG

but I didn't and used this one, which is also home made

P1060796 (Medium).JPG

It really is only when you joint the teeth that it become apparent how bad they are. The extensive flats are indicative of how much filing will be needed. A lot!

P1060792 (Medium).JPGP1060793 (Medium).JPG

This single tooth (5th from the right) cause quite a bit of extra jointing.

P1060794 (Medium).JPG

More on the tooth preparation later.

Regards
Paul

Perhaps a definition of “W&D” for the newbies

Originally Posted by riverbuilder

Perhaps a definition of “W&D” for the newbies

Ah yes RB. Thanks. It is one of my many failings to assume an unreasonable knowledge.

W&D stands for Wet and Dry and refers to the type of sand paper that can be used either wet or dry, but really thrives in being used wet. It was a coated paper developed by the 3M company and was one of the most monumental stuffs up of modern time in terms of invention. 3M is a company that specialises in surfaces but after making this wondrous discovery they neglected to patent it: An almost unforgivable omission.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Cgcc

A particular Q about the rust. If there is a mostly black patina, I understand to be magnetite... what are the actual practical needs to clear it all off? Or is it advantageous to leave it, if it's black and stable?

One can see a problem that you don't want any oxidation transferring onto a workpiece and marring a nice surface. But on the other hand if rust was rubbing off, I wondered if it might be a problem that takes care of itself as anything that would rub off, will do so after a few efforts (and indeed would be no problem on a surface you're going to plane or could easily tidy-up after). Unlike a joinery saw, you're rarely going to leave something cut with a panel saw as-is.

With one of the saws I grabbed a piece of pine scrap and rubbed it on the sides to see if it did marr, and didn't notice anything.

Other than the laziness there was a nice little advantage in making it VERY easy to see what you're doing when sharpening, as new metal will really stick out.

Cgcc

My own thoughts are that the patina is indeed magnetite and that itself is a protective coating. Power Station boilers develop a magnetite layer inside the tubes and this serves as a degree of protection against corrosion. If oxygen is introduced a further haematite layer forms over that, but I digress. However I am not absolutely sure that magnetite is the substance on the saw plate. Whatever it is, it is quite commonly found in this state, but by no means always. So that begs the question as to how this comes about for some saws and not others.

This "patina" (I shall continue with that description for now) has a matt finish and has quite a degree of friction. You could indeed leave it in place for your own use. If you intended re-selling the saw at any point you will require a sales technique capable of selling bulk sand to the Middle East! After cleaning the plate it is quite smooth to the touch. The pitting has no adverse effect other than looks.

There is another aspect other than aesthetics and friction and that is some people use the reflection in the saw blade to assist them cutting a straight and/or square line.

With regard to sharpening, a dark surface probably makes life easier to see where you have been. The first shaping strokes of the file will be on a tarnished surface. After that filing is performed on bright steel. The youngsters may be able to see, but some others require a magnifier: I must remember to deal with that aspect later on. Actually on re-reading your post I realise that is what you were saying.

Again on surfaces, there was a trend for a while around the turn of the twentieth century to sell blue blades. However, this did not appear to catch on well. I think the market was more attracted to bright shiny saws. The most prestigious models had a mirror finish to them.

Regards
Paul

Love this thread Paul.

I’m just saying like,
So I can easily follow along [emoji6].

Cheers Matt.

Originally Posted by Mountain Ash

Love this thread Paul.

Thanks MA.

I don't intend to make the journey tedious if I can help it so after this first saw where I will try to identify each part, succeeding examples will only highlight where there is some difference. So no pix showing each tooth sharpened .

Regards
Paul

This is great thread. Thanks so much. Will follow with interest.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Hi Paul,

I noticed that you are using water as a lubricant so that it is easier to rinse the gunk during the process?
Apart from the obvious cost, I assume that metho would be needed to to rinse any WD40?

Thanks for the thread & pics, great read!!

Cheers Yvan

Nice thread Paul.

If you manually remove the orange rust from any object but still have small crevices or divots that contain a small amount (not thick scaley layers just a patina) of orange rust and either can't get at it or don't want to damage/gouge the surrounding metal to get it out there are a variety of ways to deal with these.

This is a method I like that I learned from bluing steel.
Clean/degrease the whole object with a detergent like dishwashing or washing soda, rinse with distilled water and then boil the whole object in distilled water for about 15 minutes. This will convert the orange iron oxide into the black more rust resistant oxide. By boil I mean really BOIL. When you take it out and hang it up, blow dry all the crevices with compressed air. Ssome black oxide may form on the bare steel part of the object but this can be removed with steel wool. Some orange oxide may also form on the bare steel wool during drying but that will not be stick tight like the original rust and will easily come off with steel wool.

The limiting factor in case of large saws is finding a container big enough to boil the saw in and needing to use a large volume of distilled water. A long flat tray is one way to minimise the amount of water that you will need to boil but you will then need a multiple burner heating apparatus like a BBQ to do this.

A simpler way is to repeatedly drop wise flood rusty crevices with a rust converter and rub off any that gets onto the bare metal with steel wool. Don't rinse off the converted rust inside crevices with water, just blow it dry with compressed air so do this after all the orange rust has been physically removed as you don't want to get water back into the crevices. If teh rust converted marks the bare steel it should come off with steel wool.

Originally Posted by yvan

Hi Paul,

I noticed that you are using water as a lubricant so that it is easier to rinse the gunk during the process?
Apart from the obvious cost, I assume that metho would be needed to to rinse any WD40?

Cheers Yvan

Yvan

Water to assist the rinsing process is partly correct, but the primary reason is purely for lubrication of the W&D. Ordinarily the plate surface would need to be at least regularly wiped clean with a rag. However, I find it just as easy to dunk the saw straight into the bucket. I have to rinse both sides and then up end it (the saw not the bucket ) to rinse the rest of the plate. This also has the benefit of leaving a wet surface for continued rubbing.

Regarding the use of WD40 (or other similar thin lubricant) I have to say I have not had a great deal of experience with this. Quite a while back I bought a four litre container of WD40 and trialed it on a saw. I didn't like it. It was more messy than water and offered no advantages for me other than I could have walked away at any time without drying off the saw plate. I don't recall how I dealt with the residual oil. If the saw was not to be used I would suggest that it should only have the surplus oil removed with a rag, but if you wished to use it for anything other than rough cutting, then some solvent would be advisable.

I still have left approximately 3.95l of that WD40!

One point I should add is that a person restoring a single saw may well employ a different technique to somebody who is restoring multiple saws. For several saws some degree of rationalisation seems logical in the interests of cost and efficiency.

Something I have just thought of is how many of us today use a water stone in preference to an oil stone? If you are thinking about the use of water for cleaning the plate, you might like to consider this.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by BobL

Nice thread Paul.

If you manually remove the orange rust from any object but still have small crevices or divots that contain a small amount (not thick scaley layers just a patina) of orange rust and either can't get at it or don't want to damage/gouge the surrounding metal to get it out there are a variety of ways to deal with these.

This is a method I like that I learned from bluing steel.
Clean/degrease the whole object with a detergent like dishwashing or washing soda, rinse with distilled water and then boil the whole object in distilled water for about 15 minutes. This will convert the orange iron oxide into the black more rust resistant oxide. By boil I mean really BOIL. When you take it out and hang it up, blow dry all the crevices with compressed air. Ssome black oxide may form on the bare steel part of the object but this can be removed with steel wool. Some orange oxide may also form on the bare steel wool during drying but that will not be stick tight like the original rust and will easily come off with steel wool.

The limiting factor in case of large saws is finding a container big enough to boil the saw in and needing to use a large volume of distilled water. A long flat tray is one way to minimise the amount of water that you will need to boil but you will then need a multiple burner heating apparatus like a BBQ to do this.

A simpler way is to repeatedly drop wise flood rusty crevices with a rust converter and rub off any that gets onto the bare metal with steel wool. Don't rinse off the converted rust inside crevices with water, just blow it dry with compressed air so do this after all the orange rust has been physically removed as you don't want to get water back into the crevices. If teh rust converted marks the bare steel it should come off with steel wool.

Thanks Bob for that information.

I am a little reluctant to boil a saw. I place the saw in our domestic oven, which is fortunately 900mm wide and accommodate almost any saw on which I work, but limit the heat to about 60°/70°C. Really, the proof is in the pudding as I have not found the many pits and crevices to be an ongoing problem using the water method. I wax the saw plate at the end of restoration and while in a user saw this will tend to rub off in the first few strokes the wax will remain in those minute crevices and the pitting.

One aspect I should mention, as the issue of continued corrosion down the track has been raised, is that many of the de-rusting processes result in a surface that is even more prone to rust and corrosion than the original surface: This certainly includes the chemical and electrolytic processes, which I don't recommend for handsaws. Electrolysis, while it has a place for heavier object such as handplanes, is unsuitable for saws. Electrolysis removes rust extremely well including from the crevices and pits, but arguably changes the metallurgy and imparts a dull grey patina to any saw clean by this method. The dull grey patina is impossible to remove with W&D subsequently. I ruined two saws before I twigged to all this. Care also should be taken with electrolysis as it can produce toxic gases. I don't use it for hand saws.

I made a small stuff up with the wax treatment on the Sorby saw in question. I grabbed the tub and spread it on only to find I had picked up Shellawax instead of the Traditional wax. The shellawax, being a friction product, even with a car buffer did not really want to come off. I blame Ubeaut for this .

Regards
Paul

With Regards to the boiling of a saw,
Do you have to say any rhyming words while the boiling is happening, also do you need to add anything organic to the water, such as a leg of Toad or blood of Bat.

Or am I just a bit too old fashioned.

Cheers Matt.[emoji6]