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  1. #16
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    Would one of these be the Number 4 Grobet you'd suggest? https://www.amazon.com/Grobet-Swiss-...26/ref=sr_1_16

    or perhaps something like these?: https://www.amazon.com/Grobet-Americ.../dp/B00Q6W5SS0

    Im happy to grab a box and distribute them. Ive two almost-new Veritas dovetail saws. While Ive hardly worn them out, I am forward thinking!

    edit - found this one, which is triangular: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0046B9FP0/

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  3. #17
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    Mar 2008
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    Whoah, there's been a lot of discussion while I've been gone. Let me try and catch up...

    Quote Originally Posted by Simplicity
    Not sure if I’m getting the,
    I can’t sleep it’s the Cats fault,so now I can’t work,but I can play in the shed tho

    Work required brain power. Waxing a handle not so much


    Quote Originally Posted by markharrison
    I am interested in the vinegar bath. I'm not that knowledgeable about rust chemistry. I presume that is just common garden variety white vinegar? Anyone compared results with the proprietary rust treatments like Evapo-Rust?

    Mark, I used it for the first time several months ago whilst restorring my vise, and am a convert. It's just normal white vinegar ($1.20 for two liters at Woolworths). It seems to dissolve the bond between the rust and the steel. With the saws, after a soak of a day, I could brush the rust off with a toothbrush, or a piece of soft wood. Where it was really bad, I then dunked it back into the bath, so that the now exposed rust would get the vinegar treatment. It just comes off in large flakes. The only negative, is that it does leave the steel with a gray patina, but that comes off very easily with a bit of wet and dry.


    Quote Originally Posted by markharrison
    On another topic, I have been looking at saw files. I have to say that these seem pretty hard to come by. Ebay and Amazon vendors are selling Bahco files with the part number of a box of files but only giving you one!

    For reference, after doing a bunch of research myself, this is what I have written down for my reference, as I will have forgotten most of it the next time I order files.


    Decoding Bahco model numbers: 4-188-05-2-0
    Don't know what the 4 is
    -188 is the taper 183 is reg, 186 is slim, 187 Extra Slim, 188 Double Extra Slim, 190 Double ended
    -05 length in inches
    -2 Type of cut: 1 = Bastard, 2 = Second, 3 = Smooth
    -0 is without handle, -2 is with Ergo handle


    Files:
    Handsaw 6-10 tpi Bahco 4-187-07-2-0
    Tenon 12-14 tpi Bahco 4-188-06-2-0
    Jointer mill file Bahco 4-142-10-1-0


    My last order was from GasWeld, where I just got three of each (except the jointer, of which I got one).


    Quote Originally Posted by IanW
    Saw files - again?
    Hmmmm, yes. I know when I was researching initially, there is a mountain of information already documented in these forums. I think the problem for newbies is that a lot of what has been written to date is a discussion without a clear conclusion or recommendation. That's why I have noted exactly what I am using, and where I got them from. There may be better/different options, but it works for me, and anyone else starting out can just get those to start with and give it a whirl. No thinking or research required. It really is very confusing otherwise with single/double cut, tapering, double ended and it goes on.


    Quote Originally Posted by IanW
    pressed-together saw 'bolts' are indeed another of the cost-cutting, no-eyes-on-the-future depravities of the second half of the 20th century. ... Anyway, the point is that destructive dismantling is the only way to get the handles off such saws, as you've discovered.
    Thanks Ian. At least I know it wasn't just me being an idiot.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller
    I have been considering starting a fresh thread on saw restoration and if there is a sufficient interest I may still do that, but in the meantime I would just comment that the purists avoid using machine or chemical methods of cleaning up saw plates. There is a danger that the metallurgy is affected and in the case of electrolysis it imparts an unattractive greyness to the plate as well.
    A thread like that would be very welcome Paul. The only issue I have with not using chemicals (like vinegar) is how to extract the rust from the pits, which are below the surface. So that's question number one for your new thread.

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodPixel View Post
    Would one of these be the Number 4 Grobet you'd suggest? https://www.amazon.com/Grobet-Swiss-...26/ref=sr_1_16

    or perhaps something like these?: https://www.amazon.com/Grobet-Americ.../dp/B00Q6W5SS0

    Im happy to grab a box and distribute them. Ive two almost-new Veritas dovetail saws. While Ive hardly worn them out, I am forward thinking!

    edit - found this one, which is triangular: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0046B9FP0/
    Definitely not the first one, W-P, it's the last one you need, unless you are into sharpening very fine-toothed Japanese saws. Looking at the individual prices, you won't save anything buying from the US - they are only a couple more Au $s at locaal suppluers, & the postage won't sink your boat! See here, for e.g.

    The 4" DEST "American Pattern" fie you pointed to would be very suitable for 14-18tpi, but there was much grumbling about the quality of Grobet US on another forum a while ago, so proceed with caution - I wouldn't buy a gross before tried one...

    Cheers,
    IW

  5. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    Hobart, Tas
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    Today was a workshop day. I was really hoping to get Maatsuyker #59 as close to done as I could.

    First things first, I removed the saw plate from the vinegar bath and gave it a good flush with water, whilst rubbing off the last bits of rust. Just to demonstrate how well the vinegar works, I was wearing disposable blue gloves, and was able to rub the rust off with my gloved finger without damaging the glove.

    Once it was flushed, I marked the saw plate where it would need to be cut, then shot up to the local Men's Shed as soon as they opened at 9am where I cut it on the guillotine. Very fast, easy and accurate. In fact it took me more time to sign in and out of the shed than cut the plate.

    20191115_090300.jpg 20191115_090758.jpg

    Then back home again (the shed is only a five minute drive away) where I gave it a once over with a several grits of wet and dry to remove the gray patina which was left from the vinegar bath.

    20191115_092116.jpg

    To cut the teeth into the plate this time, I thought I would follow the method suggested by Paul and Ian, and very well demonstrated by Bob Rozaieski. This is certainly my now preferred method rather than creating a timber template as I've always done in the past.


    I downloaded the 15 TPI template from Blackburn Tools, which I printed and folded over my plate. I have some needle files that my Dad gave me many moons ago. They don't often get used, but it's nice to know they're there when I need them. I selected a flat profiled oval file and transferred the paper lines to the saw plate.

    20191115_123241.jpg 20191115_124054.jpg 20191115_124118.jpg

    It was time to break out one of my new Bahco files and get busy creating the teeth. In the past, to maintain a constant angle of the file, I've added a piece of wood to the top of the file which it the level. For whatever reason, it's always been hard to intuitively feel "level" with that, so thought I'd try something different this time. I had forgotten I don't have a file handle handy, so quickly whipped one up, but planed a bit flat top on one edge in the expectation that my right hand would "feel level" and maintain a consistent angle. The good news is that it worked remarkably well. Certainly the most consistent result I've had to date. Or perhaps it's just one more saw's worth of practice. Regardless the result was great.

    20191115_144519.jpg

    With the new teeth cut, it was time to set them. I still have Adam's saw set (thanks Adam) in my workshop, so it was easy. I used to smallest setting.

    20191115_134321.jpg

    It was then time to put the back back on. There was a kink in the plate afterwards but fortunately I had read an old post by Rob Steeper yesterday about tensioning backsaw plates, so was able to get it resolved simply.

    And that moment I had been waiting for all day. Re-mounting the handle and taking it for a test run.

    20191115_135852.jpg 20191115_135903.jpg 20191115_140237.jpg

    To say I was excited, thrilled and very happy would be an understatement. I even ran inside and got my wife to come out and make some test cuts. It just cuts so well. I am really pleased with how my tooth cutting and sharpening has progressed. This saw starts easily, saws effortlessly and tracks dead straight. I compared it to my tenon saw which was my first effort about nine months ago, and the difference was night and day. This saw also cross cuts very smoothly, which I was not expecting.

    When comparing the cut to my tenon saw, I noted that the kerf on this saw is super thin. On measuring, it showed a 0.45 mm plate and 0.69 mm kerf.

    After cutting and cutting and cutting, my wife started laughing at me. "After you went to all that effort, you're just bluntening it for no reason now." But I didn't care. It is a thing of beauty, with a cut that's stunning.

    With that, I'm calling Maatsuyker #59 done.

    And just to remind everyone where we started...

    59.1.jpg

    P.S. Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding, I am ecstatic!

    Kind regards,
    Lance
    Attached Images Attached Images

  6. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    6,973

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    Quote Originally Posted by LanceC View Post
    Today was a workshop day. I was really hoping to get Maatsuyker #59 as close to done as I could.

    First things first, I removed the saw plate from the vinegar bath and gave it a good flush with water, whilst rubbing off the last bits of rust. Just to demonstrate how well the vinegar works, I was wearing disposable blue gloves, and was able to rub the rust off with my gloved finger without damaging the glove.

    Once it was flushed, I marked the saw plate where it would need to be cut, then shot up to the local Men's Shed as soon as they opened at 9am where I cut it on the guillotine. Very fast, easy and accurate. In fact it took me more time to sign in and out of the shed than cut the plate.

    20191115_090300.jpg 20191115_090758.jpg

    Then back home again (the shed is only a five minute drive away) where I gave it a once over with a several grits of wet and dry to remove the gray patina which was left from the vinegar bath.

    20191115_092116.jpg

    To cut the teeth into the plate this time, I thought I would follow the method suggested by Paul and Ian, and very well demonstrated by Bob Rozaieski. This is certainly my now preferred method rather than creating a timber template as I've always done in the past.


    I downloaded the 15 TPI template from Blackburn Tools, which I printed and folded over my plate. I have some needle files that my Dad gave me many moons ago. They don't often get used, but it's nice to know they're there when I need them. I selected a flat profiled oval file and transferred the paper lines to the saw plate.

    20191115_123241.jpg 20191115_124054.jpg 20191115_124118.jpg

    It was time to break out one of my new Bahco files and get busy creating the teeth. In the past, to maintain a constant angle of the file, I've added a piece of wood to the top of the file which it the level. For whatever reason, it's always been hard to intuitively feel "level" with that, so thought I'd try something different this time. I had forgotten I don't have a file handle handy, so quickly whipped one up, but planed a bit flat top on one edge in the expectation that my right hand would "feel level" and maintain a consistent angle. The good news is that it worked remarkably well. Certainly the most consistent result I've had to date. Or perhaps it's just one more saw's worth of practice. Regardless the result was great.

    20191115_144519.jpg

    With the new teeth cut, it was time to set them. I still have Adam's saw set (thanks Adam) in my workshop, so it was easy. I used to smallest setting.

    20191115_134321.jpg

    It was then time to put the back back on. There was a kink in the plate afterwards but fortunately I had read an old post by Rob Steeper yesterday about tensioning backsaw plates, so was able to get it resolved simply.

    And that moment I had been waiting for all day. Re-mounting the handle and taking it for a test run.

    20191115_135852.jpg 20191115_135903.jpg 20191115_140237.jpg

    To say I was excited, thrilled and very happy would be an understatement. I even ran inside and got my wife to come out and make some test cuts. It just cuts so well. I am really pleased with how my tooth cutting and sharpening has progressed. This saw starts easily, saws effortlessly and tracks dead straight. I compared it to my tenon saw which was my first effort about nine months ago, and the difference was night and day. This saw also cross cuts very smoothly, which I was not expecting.

    When comparing the cut to my tenon saw, I noted that the kerf on this saw is super thin. On measuring, it showed a 0.45 mm plate and 0.69 mm kerf.

    After cutting and cutting and cutting, my wife started laughing at me. "After you went to all that effort, you're just bluntening it for no reason now." But I didn't care. It is a thing of beauty, with a cut that's stunning.

    With that, I'm calling Maatsuyker #59 done.

    And just to remind everyone where we started...

    59.1.jpg

    P.S. Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding, I am ecstatic!

    Kind regards,
    Lance
    Top Job Lance
    Um your one happy camper.

    Cheers Matt,

  7. #21
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    May 2019
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    Brisbane
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    That looks fantastic. I still have a saw which does not want to go straight. I will have to give it another go.

    Even if I did not take any of the saws I love seeing what they will become.

    I am getting my popcorn ready

    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

  8. #22
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    Onyer Lance - we need more people like you to fly the saw-sharpening flag & show folks it can be done. I have to say, you're a bit of a star, you've made enormous strides in the last year or so. I remember the first few tentative posts you made about saws, and your newbie hesitations, now here you are banging out re-toothed saws like an old pro.....

    Well done, & done well.

    Cheers,
    IW

  9. #23
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    Nov 2004
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    Redlands area, Brisbane
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    Saw files - again?
    Apparently...

    So what do you recommend for saws in lower TPI ranges? Do you have suppliers you have used you prefer? I'm having problems finding vendors that will admit to selling them!!

  10. #24
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    Mar 2008
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    Hobart, Tas
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    now here you are banging out re-toothed saws like an old pro.
    Thanks Ian. My progress is a credit to the very generous advice here by the likes of yourself, Paul, Matt and others, so thank you.

    I was surprised how easy it was to re-tooth entirely with a file, far easier than my previous method.

    Kind regards,
    Lance

  11. #25
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    Canberra
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    Absolutely outstanding. That video is gold.

  12. #26
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    Nov 2004
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    Lance

    That is a really good job and I hope your documentation of your progress through the restoration will encourage others to have a go.

    Thanks too for posting that video. A couple of things ( really only two as frequently a couple with me is anything from two to half a dozen ). I thought at one stage in the video he could have lowered the saw in the vice a little more. I know that right at the beginning he did this so hee too was aware. The file chatters if there is too much exposed saw plate and that vibration damages the file as well as making the whole experience unpleasant. If the file still chatters, lower the handle end a little until the tooth shape is established. This has the effect of engaging more file teeth with the metal and makes for a smoother operation. Bring the file back to horizontal as the finished shape is achieved. Try not to force the file as this is another act that damages the file teeth ahead of their useful life. I have to really concentrate so I don't do this as it is human instinct to gt the job done fast.

    The second aspect was right at the end of the video where he suggested that hand shaping the teeth may be better than machine cutting. I would love to believe that, but his explanation of harmonic vibration I could not completely take on board. However he referenced hand stitched rasps and how much better they perform compared to their machine cut brothers and I would totally agree that hand stitched is so superior. The question therefore becomes whether it is owing to "harmonic vibration." It could be for another reason.

    Still a good video demonstrating the essence of performing this task.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  13. #27
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    Hobart, Tas
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    Just a quick update, as I had planned on making some drawers today...

    I needed to get the rest of the back saws out of the vinegar solution, so flushed them thoroughly with water then removed the backs. In hindsight, I should have removed all the backs before bathing them as I did with #59. To be honest I thought I had made an error in removing it, but it was the better way to go, as the bath wasn't able to penetrate inside the backs in some places of these saws.



    They were then brought inside and given a once over with some 240 w&d. And what a messy business it is.



    Something I failed to mention earlier, once a plate has been sanded and a clean surface exposed to air, it will start oxodising almost immediately, so needs a coat of oil straight away. I have a pair of stockings that I no longer wore (no, not really) stuffed into a cut down tennis ball tube, which is soaked with 3 in 1 oil. A quick wipe over the plate with this is enough. For the backs, I blasted compressed air down them to remove as much moisture as possible, then sprayed WD40 down the spine.



    And this is where I am leaving things. The two Disstons are in good shape, with one having an intact handle. The brass backed number is a Frankenstineon monstrosity. The Tyzack has a crack in the plate under the handle, so will consider my options, and am open to suggestions. The Wilson dovetail saw's plate top is cactus, so will need to be trimmed. A shame.



    I think the handled Disston will be the next cab off the rank, but it will have to wait for another day. I have drawers to make and a new-to-me plough plane to do it with.

    Kind regards,
    Lance

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by markharrison View Post
    ... So what do you recommend for saws in lower TPI ranges? Do you have suppliers you have used you prefer? I'm having problems finding vendors that will admit to selling them!!
    Mark, I'm in much the same boat. Fortunately, I have a fair supply of NOS files for larger saws. I am not so fortunate, for in-between (10-14tpi) saws but I did buy some 5" DEST Bahcos from Gasweld a few months ago on the strength of prevailing opinion that Bahcos are the brand of choice atm. I'm still using the first one I cracked out but it seems to be doing the job as well as any, so when I need more I'll go with them again. [Just a side note, when I ordered my files I got a reply to say they were temporarily out of stock but new stock was expected within a couple of weeks. I think it ended up taking more than 6 weeks, and I was just deciding I'd done my dough when they arrived in the post. I'm not blaming Gasweld, I have heard that the supply of smaller files tends to be erratic, just warning you if you are in a hurry for anything...].

    Above 14tpi, I use Grobet needle files. As I said, not cheap, but fairly readily available from a number of sources, and price varies by a few dollars apiece.

    Cheers,
    IW

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    Mark, I'm in much the same boat. Fortunately, I have a fair supply of NOS files for larger saws. I am not so fortunate, for in-between (10-14tpi) saws but I did buy some 5" DEST Bahcos from Gasweld a few months ago on the strength of prevailing opinion that Bahcos are the brand of choice atm. I'm still using the first one I cracked out but it seems to be doing the job as well as any, so when I need more I'll go with them again. [Just a side note, when I ordered my files I got a reply to say they were temporarily out of stock but new stock was expected within a couple of weeks. I think it ended up taking more than 6 weeks, and I was just deciding I'd done my dough when they arrived in the post. I'm not blaming Gasweld, I have heard that the supply of smaller files tends to be erratic, just warning you if you are in a hurry for anything...].

    Above 14tpi, I use Grobet needle files. As I said, not cheap, but fairly readily available from a number of sources, and price varies by a few dollars apiece.

    Cheers,
    After I wrote about this list night, I had another Amazon search and found this set of Tome Feteira saw files for $57AUD via Amazon: Server Busy

    That is probably not a bad starter kit and shipping is free for Prime members. I will let everyone know how I get on.

    I also found vendors of boxes of Grobet American pattern saw files for about $60USD/box. They don't ship to Australia but that is a problem that is easily worked around.

    EDIT: Also found boxes of Grobet saw files on eBay for for $72AUD plus shipping etc (probably $110AUD total) which is also not very expensive per each.

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    ...... hand shaping the teeth may be better than machine cutting. I would love to believe that, but his explanation of harmonic vibration I could not completely take on board. However he referenced hand stitched rasps and how much better they perform compared to their machine cut brothers and I would totally agree that hand stitched is so superior. The question therefore becomes whether it is owing to "harmonic vibration." It could be for another reason....
    Paul, "harmonic vibration" sounds a bit too astrological to me, too! I suspect that person is looking for an excuse for irregularly-formed teeth, but putting cynicism aside, maybe he's confusing the effect of soldiers walking over a suspension bridge with the effect of a few high teeth -that will sure give you some vibration when sawing across a chunk of Ironbark, which I don't find very 'harmonius' at all!

    OTH, I think hand-cut teeth can certainly look a lot better than the teeth I saw made with the one & only machine I've watched in operation. Granted, it was a newly-acquired machine & the operator was still sorting out a few issues & learning to operate it successfully. The pretty severe distortion it introduced in the plate may have been operator error, or may have been due wholly or in part to uneven tension in the saw before it was toothed, but the crimped edge of each tooth caused by the punch is inherent in the method. The latter probably doesn't matter a lot, the crimped edges should disappear after a couple of file strokes, and the bow in the saw can be beaten out. I guess my conclusion was that if I were having to tooth innumerable saws every day, the little bit of extra filing & any re-tensioning required would be far outweighed by the speed & convenience of getting a set of even teeth made in a minute or so.

    As you well-know, toothing a 26" saw from scratch is a very tedious job!

    Cheers,
    IW

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