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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    Hobart, Tas
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    Default Restoring the Maatsuyker saw collection

    I thought rather than pollute Matt's saw dispersal thread, I'd start a new one to cover the rehabilitation of my picks.

    The name? Well it was through Matt's efforts they came to be here, and Maatsuyker Island group is just a little south of home, making it a good name for the group of saws.

    To kick things off, I removed the handles last night. There were some winners and some loosers. Perhaps there is a trick to it, but some of the saw bolts appear to be a one way press fit, and no amount of persuasion could dislodge them. Those were the loosers, for which new handles will need to be made... perhaps they'll be the winners after all.

    Once they were handle less, I prepared a nice relaxing vinegar bath for them, given their long journey the day before I thought they would appreciate it.

    20191113_180541.jpg

    That didn't take long at all, so thought I'd start cleaning up the #59's handle, as it appeared to be in reasonable condition. Starting with 80 grit sand paper, and worked my way up to 240. Then two coats of shellac before calling it a night.

    59.3.jpg 20191113_203257.jpg 20191113_210059.jpg

    As an aside, this is the first saw handle I've worked on since building my new bench. What an improvement it was to have an end vice where I would work at 90ļ to the vice. And the front vice makes a conventient camera holder

    20191113_203206.jpg

    Last night the cat slept on our bed and chose to hog all of my space. As such, I didn't sleep well and am now tired. I wasn't proving very productive in the office this morning to decided to cut my losses and head downstairs into the workshop for a spell.

    I removed each saw plate and gave it a scrub with a piece of timber to remove what rust had already loosened, and returned it to the bath for another day. Still not feeling up to work, I gave #59's handle a rub down with 0000 steel wool and a coat of wax followed by a final buffing.

    20191114_102338.jpg

    Enough fun for one day, now I'm back in the office where I'm working(ish).

    Kind regards,
    Lance

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Melbourne
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    4,204

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LanceC View Post
    I thought rather than pollute Matt's saw dispersal thread, I'd start a new one to cover the rehabilitation of my picks.

    The name? Well it was through Matt's efforts they came to be here, and Maatsuyker Island group is just a little south of home, making it a good name for the group of saws.

    To kick things off, I removed the handles last night. There were some winners and some loosers. Perhaps there is a trick to it, but some of the saw bolts appear to be a one way press fit, and no amount of persuasion could dislodge them. Those were the loosers, for which new handles will need to be made... perhaps they'll be the winners after all.

    Once they were handle less, I prepared a nice relaxing vinegar bath for them, given their long journey the day before I thought they would appreciate it.

    20191113_180541.jpg

    That didn't take long at all, so thought I'd start cleaning up the #59's handle, as it appeared to be in reasonable condition. Starting with 80 grit sand paper, and worked my way up to 240. Then two coats of shellac before calling it a night.

    59.3.jpg 20191113_203257.jpg 20191113_210059.jpg

    As an aside, this is the first saw handle I've worked on since building my new bench. What an improvement it was to have an end vice where I would work at 90ļ to the vice. And the front vice makes a conventient camera holder

    20191113_203206.jpg

    Last night the cat slept on our bed and chose to hog all of my space. As such, I didn't sleep well and am now tired. I wasn't proving very productive in the office this morning to decided to cut my losses and head downstairs into the workshop for a spell.

    I removed each saw plate and gave it a scrub with a piece of timber to remove what rust had already loosened, and returned it to the bath for another day. Still not feeling up to work, I gave #59's handle a rub down with 0000 steel wool and a coat of wax followed by a final buffing.

    20191114_102338.jpg

    Enough fun for one day, now I'm back in the office where I'm working(ish).

    Kind regards,
    Lance
    Lance,

    I will have to Google Maatsuyker island group latter,
    As Iíve only since realised there is land beyond the board of Victoria.

    Iíve never heard of press fit saw bolt,but that is not to say there not out there,I know some saws use rivets, but some of the spit nuts can be a pain to remove,an are very fragile, an donít even bother trying to find the screw pitch on them.
    An old saw blade,the irony there[emoji45] can be cut down to make a split saw nut removing tool thingie.


    Iíve tried the vinegar soak am to be honest,I still felt S....... afterwards [emoji6].

    I just give the blades a gentle scape being very careful not to scratch the blade,then start sanding with wet an dry paper using Turps.
    An it sucks!!!!.

    But thatís our Penance.

    The Handle of 59 has gone up a treat, you have done a very nice job there.
    One suggestion with regarding holding the handle while working on it, I use one of these
    There available from those Big green shed places that we donít talk about.
    Stanley Hobby Vice, I just clamp a bit of 90/45 in my bench vice an clamp the hobby vice on top,
    Makes working around the handle a lot easier.
    I think they were well under $50 when I brought mine a few years back.

    Not sure if Iím getting the,
    I canít sleep itís the Cats fault,so now I canít work,but I can play in the shed tho [emoji6][emoji6][emoji6][emoji6].

    Iím really interested too see how the bacho files go when you start sharping the saw too.

    Iím looking forward to the next stage.

    Cheers Matt,

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2010
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    Not far enough away from Melbourne
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    nice work on that handle Lance.
    Doug3030's Open Shed Day 2019 - Sunday 6 October 2019, Hoppers Crossing
    See here for details:
    https://www.woodworkforums.com/f303/...-2019-a-224305

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
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    Brisbane
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    1,080

    Default

    Looks pretty!

    I am interested in the vinegar bath. I'm not that knowledgeable about rust chemistry. I presume that is just common garden variety white vinegar? Anyone compared results with the proprietary rust treatments like Evapo-Rust?

    On another topic, I have been looking at saw files. I have to say that these seem pretty hard to come by. Ebay and Amazon vendors are selling Bahco files with the part number of a box of files but only giving you one!

    It seems I can order boxes of files from Total-Tools or one of their competitors but they will not have any in stock. I'm not sure I will ever need five full boxes of saw files and it really isn't that much cheaper to buy them individually!!

    Anyone else interested in splitting some boxes of saw files?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2010
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    Not far enough away from Melbourne
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    Quote Originally Posted by markharrison View Post
    Anyone else interested in splitting some boxes of saw files?
    Theoretically yes - in practice it would depend on the details. Brand/quality, sizes etc.

    If there is enough people interested it could be worthwhile
    Doug3030's Open Shed Day 2019 - Sunday 6 October 2019, Hoppers Crossing
    See here for details:
    https://www.woodworkforums.com/f303/...-2019-a-224305

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Brisbane
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    Default

    Given that Nicholson is now a dead loss as a file vendor, the only other vendor that seems to have a consistent product is Bahco.

    I have not yet had the opportunity to catalog my haul of saws yet but I reckon I'm probably going to need at least three of each size just for myself.

    I also bought a minty Stanley 42X on Ebay. I paid too much for it but I don't really care.

    I think I may have stumbled into a new hobby!

  7. #7
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    Apr 2006
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    near Mackay
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    Default

    I am interested in some files as well.
    ​Brad.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Sydney
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    Default

    interested in files - started looking but had no time to figure it out. Markharrison seems to have done it for me Thanks

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
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    Hobart
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    Default

    Hi Lance.

    "The name? Well it was through Matt's efforts they came to be here, and Maatsuyker Island group is just a little south of home, making it a good name for the group of saws."

    Is there a bit of history behind the group of saws?

    Cheers Yvan

  10. #10
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    Mar 2018
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    Sydney
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    Quote Originally Posted by yvan View Post


    Is there a bit of history behind the group of saws?

    Cheers Yvan
    just this...

  11. #11
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    Lance, pressed-together saw 'bolts' are indeed another of the cost-cutting, no-eyes-on-the-future depravities of the second half of the 20th century. Why pay some flunkey a pittance to fit saw bolts when a machine does it for nix & never asks for a pay rise? Anyway, the point is that destructive dismantling is the only way to get the handles off such saws, as you've discovered. The loss is not great, the handles are usually both fugly & uncomfortable to use.

    Saw files - again?

    The situation has improved, marginally, over the last couple of years. Nicholson have upped their game a bit, by all reports, and my own experience with a couple of new Nicholsons bought within the last 18 months was a bit more positive than previous encounters.

    Both Bahco & Pferd will usually get the job done. Several places sell them singly, & although the unit price for a single file is significantly more than by the box, it's not that bad in the grand sweep of things. For the occasional sharpener, files will cost you far less than your annual coffee bill. Anyone like Lance, who is getting into saw restoration and sharpening in a serious way should consider buying a box or two - you'll probably be surprised at how quickly they go.

    I think group buys of files will be tricky to organise - different saws & different people like different files. If you're not too fussy, you can cover the typical range of handsaws with a couple of sizes; it doesn't matter too much to the home sharpener if you use a size that's a wee bit bigger than optimum for a given tooth size. All files have the same 60 degree face angles, but as you go down the length & "slimness" table, the corner radii become sharper, which means they can fit between the tips of fine teeth. If you use a file with slightly larger corner radii, it will make a wider gullet, but as long as it's only slightly larger, 90% wouldn't notice. A few folks have even said they like them that way & deliberately use a slightly larger file than is usually recommended.

    There are numerous tables matching file-size to saw-pitch here, or there , and they all agree pretty closely. A degree either side of what's recommended is usually tolerable, and the 'slimness factor overlaps. For example, a 5" EST will be roughly matched by a 6"DEST or a 4" ST, so if you can't get the exact file recommended, try for an alternative. The only caveat is that once you use a particular size file on a saw, it's best to stick with that size. Using a file with a sharper corner radius than the file used to sharpen the saw previously makes it more difficult for the occasional sharpener to maintain a constant rake angle because the file can wobble slightly when you first place it in the gullet. If you're very careful, or use a guide stick, it's ok, but it's just one more thing to cope with when you are learning.

    For pitches of 15tpi & higher, I use Grobet needle files, which are obtainable from jewellers suppliers. Cheap they ain't, thanks partly to our enfeebled $, but they are consistent, do an excellent job, & last better than any other brand of small file I've tried - you'll sharpen 10 small saws with one file easily, unless major surgery is required, so they will cost you less than $2 per saw. Ask for #4 cut, which is typically the coarsest they carry - it's still finer than an American pattern 4" DEST & has sharper corners, but being double-cut, it shifts metal faster & easier than a 4" DEST. They have two downsides, the useable part of the file is short, and the tips are excessively sharp for saw files, so watch the pinkies on your left hand while filing!
    Nothing's perfect......

    Cheers,
    IW

  12. #12
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    Nov 2004
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    Ian

    Thanks for that summary. You may have saved about ten pages on Ubeaut's Forum while we discuss the pros and cons of files (again) and a heap of time for interested parties as they wade laboriously through the mass of information and mis-information contained in those pages.

    The rumour is that the Bahco files are made by the portuguese manufacturer Tome Feteira, although I still need to have that absolutely confirmed, and files under both company names seem to be as good as we can now get.

    The only other thing I would add, as you have covered almost everything, and this is purely personal, is to use the longest file you can that meets the criteria. Eg. a 4 1/2" slim taper has the same face width as a 6" DEST (Double extra slim taper) file.

    However, in practice it will be whatever you can get hold of. Few establishments carry much of a range, even through the web.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  13. #13
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    I have been considering starting a fresh thread on saw restoration and if there is a sufficient interest I may still do that, but in the meantime I would just comment that the purists avoid using machine or chemical methods of cleaning up saw plates. There is a danger that the metallurgy is affected and in the case of electrolysis it imparts an unattractive greyness to the plate as well. There was a time when I thought electrolysis was the answer, but that was completely wrong. Use electrolysis for solid tools like metal plane bodies and the like, but not saws.

    Any electric sanding is a no no. If a plate is heavily rusted a steel scraper can be used to remove flaking material and here an old piece of saw plate is ideal (those old hardpoint saws are good for this) but relieve the corners ( a little like a smoothing plane blade) so it does not score the surface as you will never be able to remove those scratches. I have never used a scraper, but you can with the aforementioned proviso.

    I just use W & D starting on really bade blades with 120g and 240g on more respectable specimens. Then work through the grits to whatever you wish. Staining can be removed so the plate may come up a bit like this:

    P1050623 (Medium).JPGP1050624 (Medium) (2).JPG

    In the Atkins saw above I could have used it to shave with (but only as a mirror, not a razor )

    While most blades can be returned to some degree of shine, pitting will be there for ever:

    P1050478 (Medium).JPG

    Congratulations to Lance for starting the journey so quickly.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    ......The only other thing I would add, as you have covered almost everything, and this is purely personal, is to use the longest file you can that meets the criteria. Eg. a 4 1/2" slim taper has the same face width as a 6" DEST (Double extra slim taper) file.....l
    A very good point, Paul, which I forgot to mention (it's sort of implied when I said the needle files don't have a lot of useable length). It's all about being able to make comfortable, even strokes to maintain consistency from tooth to tooth. Anything you can do to get consistency is a help!

    Cheers,
    IW

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    For pitches of 15tpi & higher, I use Grobet needle files, which are obtainable from jewellers suppliers. Cheap they ain't, thanks partly to our enfeebled $, but they are consistent, do an excellent job, & last better than any other brand of small file I've tried - you'll sharpen 10 small saws with one file easily, unless major surgery is required, so they will cost you less than $2 per saw. Ask for #4 cut, which is typically the coarsest they carry - it's still finer than an American pattern 4" DEST & has sharper corners, but being double-cut, it shifts metal faster & easier than a 4" DEST. They have two downsides, the useable part of the file is short, and the tips are excessively sharp for saw files, so watch the pinkies on your left hand while filing!
    Thanks for the tip on the Grobet needle files Ian.

    There's a couple of saws I am building from scratch that I want to do some fine teeth in when I get a little better at it. I will keep an eye out for the Grobets.
    Doug3030's Open Shed Day 2019 - Sunday 6 October 2019, Hoppers Crossing
    See here for details:
    https://www.woodworkforums.com/f303/...-2019-a-224305

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