Thread: Rusty Infill Plane - should I go for it or walk away?

Also glad you got it Colin. We are now all waiting to see the pics of it cleaned up and the compulsory image of wispy thin shavings.
Regards
John

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Get it! That's a Spier!!

I would spend easily R3000 on it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

If Derek is correct, then you have got a bargain. If its a good copy of a Spier then you probably paid an appropriate price. Maybe I was too pessimistic, deterred by the poor photos, or I'm just a scrooge.

We look forward to some tool .


Cheers

Graeme

Originally Posted by IanW

......OTH, nothing wrong with small rear-bun smoothers, they can be just as comfy to use as a handle. I've developed a bit of a thing about them over the last year... :

Attachment 463242


Cheers,

Couldn't resist reposting your photos, Ian.

Cheers

Graeme

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

Couldn't resist reposting your photos, Ian....

Hmm, I think it was just a drive-by boast on my part, Graeme, but I'd not long finished the one in front, & finally,after something like 15 or more dovetailed infills, I got the dovetails perfect on this one. Not a speck of a pinhole or faint line between sides & sole. If nothing else, I've learnt great respect for the blokes who hammered away day after day in the Spiers & Norris workshops, producing the flawless plane bodies we see today. I wonder what they did with the ones the first-year apprentices made??

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Well I'm glad you got it, Colin, you'll be able to give it a thorough inspection & tell us if there's a maker's name somewhere under the grime and also perhaps shed some light on that funny bun, which has piqued my curiosity.

Branded or not, you should have a decent user. P'raps even better if it isn't a Spiers or something 'collectable', you won't feel guilty putting it to work to earn its keep.
Cheers,

When I arrived at work this morning, the security guard at the gate had a parcel for me. It’s not a Spiers, but a Mathieson, so Glasgow rather than Ayr - less than 50 miles away seems pretty close from this distance.

I’ll need to clean the blade a bit more to get the name there, but it looks a lot like a Ward to me. The bun is definitely an after market addition - I suspect the handle broke and was replaced by the bun. At this stage I’m going to clean it up, flatten and sharpen the blade and leave the bun as is. I’ll do some research, but never having made a handle before, I don’t know if I want to mess this up with my first attempt. Maybe in a few years time, or maybe the next owner can give it a go after I’m gone one day.

I’m on my phone, so posting pictures is always a bit of a mission, but I’ll see if I can add a few.


D63A67F1-EC33-4E80-A5FE-635479F090DA.jpg
The name is quite small and feint, but it is readable.
88C00CFB-5ACB-4070-BE4C-5F8B58C09BE9.jpg
Square thread on the thumbscrew.
D0072E1F-9A32-4FE8-9066-DEFC942CF4AD.jpg
Pleanty of blade left.
BB0402F5-D159-4AC8-AAEC-9C7B2AD9EC98.jpg
You can see by the rust that the chip breaker was set about 15mm back.
9FE1CB8D-B428-41B6-B132-4E3ABA6358A6.jpg
Not sure but it looks like a Ward blade.
777DE1B5-8377-4196-8F4C-5C2B2793763A.jpg
No name on the front bun.
3BBA1428-88A9-402F-90FB-D3F0ED6882F9.jpg
Not sure what that is not why it’s there - I can’t see a crack that it might be holding together.
89CC4853-0371-4873-B34F-162C0A14B7F6.jpg
You can see a bit of a glue line where the rear bun was added.
4DD28A3E-2A3C-4184-84DD-708BFFFA8C11.jpg
28E90105-056C-405E-8BA8-1E0A88481E89.jpg

It looks like this is the wrong blade or chip breaker. It doesn’t fit far enough under the lever cap to come through the mouth. Unless you’ve got the chip breaker set back by about 15mm...

I’ll spend some of my lunch hour fiddling with cleaning the blade a bit and comparing it to a Spiers setup which I know works.

Colin, that is a score. Mathieson preceded Spier. One might say that a Spier was a copy of Mathieson.

The blade and chipbreaker are often replaced somewhere along the line. They are plentiful. Just ensure the blade is correct, that is, it should be a parallel iron, and not tapered. The chipbreaker is important to close up the blade, so check it is long enough to do this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by Colin62

3BBA1428-88A9-402F-90FB-D3F0ED6882F9.jpg
Not sure what that is not why it’s there - I can’t see a crack that it might be holding together....

Someone's idea of a strike button?

Originally Posted by Colin62

......
89CC4853-0371-4873-B34F-162C0A14B7F6.jpg
You can see a bit of a glue line where the rear bun was added.

Hmm, the grafted in bit isn't as well-executed as it looked in the advertisement pics, Colin, but it's not a home-handyman job, either. I can vouch that it takes a lot of patience & care to get stuffing to fit perfectly on both sides, so I'm not surprised the joint isn't perfect. But I reckon you are right that it was to replace a broken tote/handle. I don't think it would be all that hard to make a new handle, but it sure will be hard to find a piece of old, dark Rosewood to look anything like the original woodwork! African Blackwood might be as close as you'll get, it's a Dalbergia, so in the right genus, but I guess it grows more than a day's walk from where you live!

Somewhere, I've seen a quite good 'tutorial' on replacing a broken 'free' handle on a plane very similar to yours. I think it was on a UK forum. The only tricky part as I recall was removing a rivet (or was it two?) that went through the body to retain the handle. The handle had a long, square tongue that slid into a corresponding opening in the bottom of the blade-bed.

I reckon you are wise to try to get it working as-is and worry about a full restoration in the future when you are feeling more confident about tackling it. As I said, a rear bun can be just as comfy as a handle, so it could still be an excellent tool.

Number one priority is obviously to sort out the blade-chipbreaker conundrum. Obviously, either the blade or the cap-iron is too thick. The blade is the most likely part to have been replaced on an old plane, so I would treat it as the #1 suspect, but people do funny things, and it's equally possible the cap-iron is a ring-in, the end of it looks a bit wonky, which might indicate it's been commandeered from something else & forced into the wrong place.

Uncle Fred the handyman would just take to the mouth with a file & open it up, but I think most readers of this part of the Forum would blanche at that thought. Just smoothing & rounding the end of the cap-iron might allow it to fit when set at a useful distance from the cutting edge, but not if either blade or cap-iron is a serious mismatch. My thought is that it can't be too far off fitting, or the blade & cap-iron wouldn't fit under the lever cap.

I'm sure you'll figure it out in time.....
Cheers,

I have a little more to report after a quick look around over lunch. The blade and chip breaker are definitely Mathieson & Son, what I thought was Ward and something is in fact Warranted. The blade is 5mm thick (I should be using imperial, but I grabbed the metric vernier), where the one in my Spier is 4mm. The Spier blade and chip breaker fits into the Mathieson, didn’t have time to try swapping the chip breakers yet. The spare blade I have is a taper, so that’ll not do (and it’s 5mm at the business end and doesn’t leave any clearance on the mouth. So I believe I’m looking for a 5/32” blade.

Interestingly the lever has just Mathieson, no & Son, so the plane might well predate the blade I have. I’ve attached pics of the logos on the blade and chip breaker as well as a back to back shot with my Spiers, and the two blades.

Originally Posted by IanW

Someone's idea of a strike button?

That was my first thought. It would look a lot better if it was in the middle of the bun and not off to the side though.

Originally Posted by IanW

Hmm, the grafted in bit isn't as well-executed as it looked in the advertisement pics, Colin, but it's not a home-handyman job, either. I can vouch that it takes a lot of patience & care to get stuffing to fit perfectly on both sides, so I'm not surprised the joint isn't perfect. But I reckon you are right that it was to replace a broken tote/handle. I don't think it would be all that hard to make a new handle, but it sure will be hard to find a piece of old, dark Rosewood to look anything like the original woodwork! African Blackwood might be as close as you'll get, it's a Dalbergia, so in the right genus, but I guess it grows more than a day's walk from where you live!

Somewhere, I've seen a quite good 'tutorial' on replacing a broken 'free' handle on a plane very similar to yours. I think it was on a UK forum. The only tricky part as I recall was removing a rivet (or was it two?) that went through the body to retain the handle. The handle had a long, square tongue that slid into a corresponding opening in the bottom of the blade-bed.

I have a piece or two of African Blackwood, but it’s pretty much unobtainable these days unless someone is selling old stock. I could take my chainsaw and start heading north - I might get lucky.

You can see, under the bun at the back, that the centre of the rosewood is a different piece to the sides. I suspect that the repaired trimmed the handle off and rounded it off, matching the curve of the sole, that would be the long, square tongue you mentioned.

Colin, I think it's looking more & more like the blade is the ring-in. With luck, you might find a thinner blade - pity you don't have access to a machine shop where you could just grind a bit off the back of the blade 'til it fits. Actually, since blades are 'consumables', I wouldn't have too many compunctions about modifying it, & in any case your old girl is hardly in pristine 'collectible' condition...

I've spent several minutes gazing at the biggest image I can make of the Mathiesen, to try & work out if it's a dovetailed or cast body, but it's hard to tell from the pics. I think I can see a couple of faint lines at front & back where it's hard to get a really tight fit between sides & sole (well, I find it hard), but I may be imagining too much. I was also looking for evidence of rivets holding the rear stuffing, but they are well blended if they are there! The front ones are easy to spot, but nothing stands out at the back on the side facing the camera...

Cheers,

It’s a bit of a busy weekend here, but I’m sure we’ll be able to see more once I get a chance to take some of the rust off.

Originally Posted by IanW

Colin, I think it's looking more & more like the blade is the ring-in. With luck, you might find a thinner blade - pity you don't have access to a machine shop where you could just grind a bit off the back of the blade 'til it fits. Actually, since blades are 'consumables', I wouldn't have too many compunctions about modifying it, & in any case your old girl is hardly in pristine 'collectible' condition...

I've spent several minutes gazing at the biggest image I can make of the Mathiesen, to try & work out if it's a dovetailed or cast body, but it's hard to tell from the pics. I think I can see a couple of faint lines at front & back where it's hard to get a really tight fit between sides & sole (well, I find it hard), but I may be imagining too much. I was also looking for evidence of rivets holding the rear stuffing, but they are well blended if they are there! The front ones are easy to spot, but nothing stands out at the back on the side facing the camera...

Cheers,

I’ve had a quick look on eBay, but no-one seems to mention the thickness in their descriptions, and it’s going to cost a bit in postage (courier actually, the post office can be unreliable out here in the third world), and I have a couple of friends who’re in the tool making line so I might fish around a bit and call in a favour to get this blade ground down a bit.

I’ve done a very quick clean with a pot scourer, and there is definitely a rivet near the back. There are also a couple of bits where it looks like there is a tiny gap between the sole and the sides. If you look inside the mouth you can also see the join - I don’t know if that means anything though. The other picture shows the rear where you can see the join in the rosewood where I assume the bottom of the handle was cut off and faired into the infill.

Colin
The early Mathieson infill planes seemed to of been made by Spiers and are very rare. But yours is not one of those, they used that stamp on the lever cap from 1890 to 1930’s the shape on the top of bolt on the lever cap would date it in the 1890’s no earlier.

If the iron goes all the through the mouth the problem is not with iron it’s the lever cap or the chip breaker.

Peter