Thread: Sargent Plane

MA

Nice job.

Sargent had a very wide range of hand planes in all three categories (wood, transitional and steel). I have a couple I am looking forward to working with, but looking at the projects it is a fairly long way off as it falls within the realms of an "indulgence."

Regards
Paul

Hi Paul. I haven't seen many wooden ones but the transitional are very nice. Not very common in Oz.

MA

My project planes are Transitionals and they did indeed come from the US. These are Sargent wood planes from one of their 1910 catalogues. They seem to have phased them out in later editions and even a 1911 catalogue did not feature them.

Sargent wood planes 1910.jpg

Regards
Paul

Love those old catalogues. Do you have any idea of the difference between "warranted" and "not warranted"? And what was the "lignum vitae start"? I have a reprint of Sargent's 1911 "Tool Book" for "Mechanics". Great read, and it has my VBM plane in it.

Originally Posted by Mountain Ash

Love those old catalogues. Do you have any idea of the difference between "warranted" and "not warranted"? And what was the "lignum vitae start"? I have a reprint of Sargent's 1911 "Tool Book" for "Mechanics". Great read, and it has my VBM plane in it.

MA

Sorry. I can't really help with that. I could hazard a guess that the lignum vitae vitae start was an insert ahead of the cutting edge to minimise wear, but that is just a guess. The drawings don't depict that. Others may have more information.

Regards
Paul

The Sargent bench planes varied quite a bit from their top line planes to their entry level planes.

The specialty planes were often simplified versions. Their #79 duplex rabbet plane, for instance, was a simpler version of the (later) Stanley #78: same double bed, standard location and bullnose location; similar lever cap; but depth setting was by delicate fingers (also known as guess) rather than by a lever.

Still, good planes, and certainly better than the mass market new ones.

For those looking for a way to spend a few idle moments (or do actual research): The Sargent Planes Page - Handplanes Manufactured by Sargent Tools

Hi Bill. Mine is marked VBM- very best made!

Originally Posted by Mountain Ash

Love those old catalogues. Do you have any idea of the difference between "warranted" and "not warranted"? And what was the "lignum vitae start"? I have a reprint of Sargent's 1911 "Tool Book" for "Mechanics". Great read, and it has my VBM plane in it.

Start = strike button on the front of the plane.

in theory, warranted planes/parts were returnable for complaint or defect, it was more of a tier-marking term, to market that whatever is warranted should be quality.

I don't know any exact percentage, but would guess that sargent's vbm planes were a small % of stanley's bailey planes in terms of market share. Most catalogs, as you've probably seen, list stanley's planes and then options that cost less (lakeside, union, probably some sargent. My M-W 1895 catalog only has chaplin's patent planes (more expensive than stanley, didn't fare well in the market), three sets of transitionals (all stanley, from liberty bell to ...I don't know what the difference is for the other two), and then some off brand (but quality) combination planes, etc that are expensive.

re: the all wood planes, ohio tools double iron planes can be had in a set of four (not listed as warranted, and of all of the irons I've seen, if an ohio tool or auburn iron is a dud, refreshing the heat treatment doesn't cure it - the steel itself is lacking in quality). the set of four only costs about the same as a single metal stanley jack plane. Barton's "warranted" wooden planes are sold in a set of four for just under twice the price of the ohio set.

VBM are about as good as stanley bailey, but different. I've had several of the VBM irons, and all have been a step softer than stanley (probably on purpose, maybe because they're thicker) and some of the VBMs at least have a biased ramp toward the plane's mouth. It's a novel idea, but not practical for making a difference vs. stanley's types with support that's straight up and down all the way to the mouth. They are not cheaply made, though (The VBMs) and I've had but one (A #3 that I must've sold 15 years ago because it was a 3 and in need of a part).

Some of the other sargent line have unsupported lengths of iron below the bottom of the frog, and they are not a match for stanley. same goes for union as well as any types of stanley that don't have support all the way down.

I don't know MFs story other than that they came along very late, but their first four types had cost cuts more in softer castings (which are kind of nice if you have to flatten them), and the irons aren't quite a match for stanley's Pre 1950s or so irons. And they are painted, and have a stamped yoke (also a yawner for me - if the yoke works, two piece stamped is fine. i've never seen one broken, either).

Thanks David. Great info. My next plane to restore is a Vaughan Bushnell #905. Have you any experience of these?

I think raffo may have showed up with one, or maybe not, but I've never planed with one. IIRC, they're all steel, or at least some of them are drop forged plane bodies. I wonder if they're lighter than a stanley.

I looked up pictures of them, and they look like they have a frog design that can support the iron all the way down - it's hard for a plane to be bad if that's the case and there's nothing uncomfortable about it.

I do have one, a #3. It works as well for as a good stanley.

The body is drop forged steel, the machining is not smooth, but it's accurate. It should resist dropping it on concrete.

The 900 series was their top of the line, the lever cap was nickel plated and perhaps other bells and whistles. Mine is an 800 or 700 series.

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I've a question regarding the Sargent wooden planes, the non warranted planes cost the same as the warranted ones. So, what distinguished them?

Originally Posted by raffo

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I've a question regarding the Sargent wooden planes, the non warranted planes cost the same as the warranted ones. So, what distinguished them?

Raffo

I noticed that and thought it strange. I don't know the answer, but it seems illogical.

Regards
Paul

Thanks David and Raffo. I have read up a little about them. I am looking forward to seeing how the walnut knob and tote come up. Mine has a Fulton blade, which funnily enough is "warranted". Not original which is a shame but looks thickish.

I've owned a V&B 905. I thought it was a Bedrock in the grainy picture when I saw it on marketplace due to its flat top sides. I preferred my type 13 Bailey so I sold it on when I rationalised all my planes a few years ago. Much of the nickel had worn off, so my example had lost much of the lustre it must have had when it was new. Hope yours comes up nice and turns into a keeper. Cheers, Zac.