Thread: Sash Tenon Saw (plus) How to make a Saw Handle

Nice work fifac!

Good idea bout that file jig Ian.

If you saw makers are going make a few saws you may want to think about making an indexer. Here's mine.

Cheers

Well thanks again, BobL - I was musing about a way to index the marking-out step, & you've given me an idea of how to index both the pitch & the rake angle. Damn! looks like more saws coming up. I really have to quit & get back to producing something SWMBO can appreciate soon, or there will be trouble at home. There were some very broad hints dropped about a couple of stalled projects on Sunday night....

It can't go on much longer - I have now got what I consider a "full set" of saws for all occasions. Here is the collection I've acquired, since you lot led me astray. They are from left to right:

1. An 18tpi 210mm long blade by about 45 deep. This was my first go - It was a cheap, steel-backed saw that I rehandled a very long time ago - always liked the way it cut & held its sharpness, so last year I made the brass back for it. I thought that was the end of the matter!

2 &3. Two BunnieBob saws, both 12 tpi, the one on the left (Maple handle) is filed rip, t'other crosscut. Blade size 300 x 75mm. Both nice, solid saws to use.

4. The first saw from scratch - blade size 250 x 55 mm, 15 tpi. crosscut. This is just the nicest little saw I've ever used - partly 'cos I made it, of course, but by pure serendipity, it really does fit my hand & suits the way I work remarkably well - this is the favourite so far.

5. The little knife-handled saw from last weekend.

Of course all these saws need a safe home, so a bit of modifying of the toolbox was required to stow them all neatly and accessibly. The observant will spot a couple of other small saws not mentioned. The one in the bottom left of the right hand door is a saw I bought new about 25 years ago, and almost immediately rehandled. Can't remember how many teeth it had to begin with, but about 12 years ago I recut it to 12 tpi rip. With very little set and a scant 20 thou blade, it is my dovetail cutter without parallel.
The Sheoak handle sticking up between the S&J ripsaw & my Walnut BunnieBob has a Japanese flush-cutting blade attached - one of the most useful little tools I've made.

Cheers,

Ian,
those saws and your tool box look fantastic. Something to aspire to. Lovely stuff.
Kevin

Originally Posted by kevjed

ian,
those saws and your tool box look fantastic. Something to aspire to. Lovely stuff.
Kevin

+1!

Ian's work and creativity are terrific. The cabinet would look good in any shop, especially mine.

The photo does not do it justice.

Peter

Wow, you turn your back around here and Ian makes another two beautiful saws. I was thinking the other day of making a few flush trim saws, you know the type with teeth set only on one side for flush trimming dowels....

Now that I've mentioned it I bet IanW beats me to it!..

Speaking of which, that tool cabinet is just mouth watering...

Nice work ficfac , the handle has a nice comfy rounded look to it. I have made pull saws (japanese style) before, but was never really at home with pull rather than push. It just seems more natural, to me at least, to push. I will be interested to see how a conventional style western saw goes with a pull type cutting action.

Regards,
Ray

Originally Posted by RayG

....I was thinking the other day of making a few flush trim saws, you know the type with teeth set only on one side for flush trimming dowels....

Now that I've mentioned it I bet IanW beats me to it!..

Well funny you should say that Ray - I DID consider doing one just for fun, but decided the .5mm steel might not be quite flexible enough. So while I haven't done one from scrtatch, I made this up a few years ago (pic). I bought a replacement blade for the Carbatec Japanese style and stuck a handle on it. As I said, it's one of the handiest tools in my shed - this is one place the pull saw style comes into its own, of course.

I made this saw after a short-lived & very disappointing affair with a well-known brand of flush-trim saw. The steel in it was nowhere near as 'springy' as the Japanese blade. It didn't cut very freely (teeth too fine in my opinion) and about the second time I used it, it caught in the cut & kinked (& we have mentioned before how hard it is to remove kinks from saw blades! ). The Japanese blade cuts very freely and never seems to catch, despite its 'zero' set. The only down side is the re-sharpenening problem, & by the time it needs it, I won't be able to get a replacement, so maybe I WILL have to learn to do it!

We've never really gotten into a discussion on ideal tooth pitches & rake - maybe it's a subject for a whole new thread. I must admit I never thought all that much about it until comparatively recently. I just accepted that small saws came with very fine teeth and that was that. But after reading about modifying small backsaws to perform better in FWW & applying that to one of my saws, it was a bit of a revelation, & the beginning of a slow & often frustrating learning path on tooth profiles, tooth pitch & sharpening. Still got a long way to go, but one 'discovery' I have made is that tooth pitches greater than about 20tpi, besides being diabolically hard to sharpen, aren't very useful for 99% of what I do, since I rarely saw anything finer than 6mm thick, and when I do, a cheap razor saw (<$3) from a craft shop does the job better than anything else I know....

Just a thought for the day.....
Cheers

Hi Ficfac - sorry, I jumped in and bumped your post a bit. Welcome to the world of sawmaking, but be careful, it seems like a chronic disease - you're already referring to this as your 'first saw'!

I used an old blade for my first try, too - since 90% of the quality of a sawblade is in the sharpening, IMO, you can make a very nice saw from a cheapie. Now that you're getting deeply into hand tools, you should do the next handle without the round-over bit, and leave a few crisp edges and chamfers in the right spots for decoration. Cherry is a nice wood (Lie Nielsen seem to think so, too!) and takes on a lovely polish after a few years of handling...

Cheers,

Well my "collection" increased over the weekend. I've been somewhat obsessed with saw-making of late, as some of you may have gathered from other posts. Fortunately, I have almost run out of raw materials, so it has to come to an end shortly (not the least because my better half has made some comments about the lack of 'useful' items coming out if the shed, lately! ).

However, it has been a very illuminating as well as thoroughly enjoyable experience. I've learnt how little I understood these basic tools and have most certainly improved my filing skills, though they are still a long way from 'professional'.

I have always instinctively reached for one or the other of a couple of small saws for particular jobs, & never really thought about why they seemed to be 'right' for the particular job. In making so many saws (~10 in all) over a short period, I've been able to fiddle with tooth pitches & profiles & come up with some ideas that seem to work for me. Everyone has to do the exercise for themselves, of course, because what you prefer will depend on what sort of sawing you mostly do.

Apart from teeth, the weight, blade length and grip size and angle are all important factors that make a saw feel just right for any particular job. For instance, I found that the grip on my favourite dovetail saw is much more 'vertical' than on equivalent sized saws in my tool kit, which explains why it is more comfy when sawing dovetails, which I usually do at a much higher level than the bench top. Contrast that with my 'favourite' saw for cutting tenon shoulders & the like, which I usually do on a bench hook. The shallower angle of the grip on this saw gives a more comfortable hold when the saw is held lower (as well as allowing the handle to clear the flat top of the bench hook). You can see what I mean in the comparison of these two 'mini' saws (pic 1). I made the pistol-grip handle just for fun, after making the knife-handled version shown above. But the knife-handled version is actually more versatile & useful - the pistol grip will make a good beginner saw for a grandchile, perhaps.....

The two carcase saws (pic 2) are good example of how small variations make a big difference in use. The top saw was just completed on the weekend. The blade is 300mm X 75mm & .5mm thick, 15tpi, rip pattern (5 deg rake). It cuts well, but I wish I had gone for 12tpi, or maybe even 10 - some experimentation coming up when I get more time. The 'twin' below it has a thicker blade (.75mm), same tooth pitch, but filed crosscut (8 deg rake and somewhere between 15 & 20 deg fleam angle). It cross-cut dry bluegum like butter. The slightly thicker blade (only .025mm or .010") gives it a bit of extra weight & rigidity that feels right on crosscuts. It rips ok, but compared with the other, it is slower & leaves a much wider kerf.

After all this mucking about, I'm coming to a few conclusions of what makes a good 'core' of useful small saws (sizes, handles, tooth pitches & styles) for the sort of cabinet-making I do. One day I might feel confident enough to do a Derek or a Bob Smalser & write a little treatise on it all...

Thanks fellas! Yeah I'll try the 'proper' way next time. They look really good with all the angles and points. I seem to be very comfy sawing with the pull-stroke method which is why i thought i'd sharpen that way. Still haven't done it though!

Hi IanW,

I would encourage you to write up the saw design notes while still fresh in your mind, the design trade offs and different tooth pitch, hang angles and so on. If you like I can put it on http://www.backsaw.net as an article.

Ficfac,

Here is a pull saw I made a while back, it was a real dog to use, I went too agressive with the coarse pitch, but it can rip through soft pine quicker than a circular saw. I haven't considered a western style grip for a pull saw, I would be interested to see how it goes.



The handle is she-oak, saw plate is 20thou, overall length is 26 inches.. I might make another, but the blade design needs work.

Regards
Ray

Originally Posted by RayG

Hi IanW,
I would encourage you to write up the saw design notes while still fresh in your mind, the design trade offs and different tooth pitch, hang angles and so on. If you like I can put it on http://www.backsaw.net as an article.
Ray

Hi Ray - I'll see what I can do, but I'm a bit flat chat with the day job for a couple of weeks. I still have a couple of saws to do, so don't worry - there'll be something to write about. If you want to post it on your website, I'll do it as a PDF & email it to you, when it gets done. Don't hold your breath, but I WILL get aroundtuit as soon as I can, mainly because I'm interested in some feedback of other people's experiences, tooth pitch preferences, etc.

Out of curiosity, what is the rake angle of your pull-saw? It looks like it's 90 deg. from the pic. That ought to be ok for a rip, but it is pretty aggressive, and tears up the back (or front in your case) of the cut a bit. After some trial & (mostly) error, I'm thinking about 5 deg, negative rake for a rip is a good all-round compromise when you are moving between our harder & softer woods.

You have enough saws on hand that you could sharpen about a dozen rips & an equal number of crosscut profiles in increments of a degree for about 4 or 5 tooth pitches. That way you'd have the perfect saw for any sawing situation that came along!

Avagoodnight,

cheers Ray, I'll try to get a move on and sharpen it so I can let you know.

OK - this is the end of obsessional saw making - if I don't make something "useful" soon, SWMBO is going to lose patience.

I wasn't happy with the handle on the little 18 tpi saw I made a week or so ago - it was at too steep an angle for comfortable cutting below about half way between shoulder & waist, and the bottom of the grip projected below the tooth line of the blade. Not a good start if you want to use it on a bench hook. So off it came and a new handle of She-oak fitted (finally run out of suitable Walnut scraps). I reduced its size a fraction, too - still comfy for my smallish hand, and more in proportion. Much happier with the result. Still got a ways to go to master the filing of such small teeth, though - have ordered some new needle files, so hope I can get it right when they turn up.

I had one last scrap of 20 thou. plate, & I liked the look of the "Kenyon-inspired" saw Ray posted a while ago, so I used the handle off the small saw and fixed the angle so it doesn't project below the blade.
Result: Complete happiness! This is my best effort yet - everything has come together about as well as I can hope - by being very gentle with the sawset, I got just the right amount of set. I used 3/16" thick brass for the backs on this & the smaller saw. The 1/4" seemed a bit heavy & clumsy, but the 3/16 seems to work well and gives a better balance. Might be a bit easier to knock out of whack if abused, but I hope that will never happen - at least not in my lifetaime......

Anyway, the proof is in the eating of the pudding, & this just eats through wood with an almost silky action - I think the previous favourite has just been usurped......

Here are the compulsory pics.
1. Rehandled 150mm 18 tpi
2. New saw, 210mm 15 tpi
3. Some of the collection, to show the range of sizes I've settled on as the most useful & convenient for me.
The bottom two include the very handy little all-rounder (250mm, 15 tpi) and a 300mm 12 tpi (crosscut) with closed handle.

The closed handle crosscut has a brother that is filed as a rip. Some day, I MAY make another little 'Kenyon' and experiment with tooth sizes & patterns, but not for a month or three........