Thread: Back Saws

Hi AB. Did you try to remove the handle on the S +J with the steel back? I have got one and it has no screw slots. Wondering how it might be done

All part of the learning process, Andy.

Coupla points: One, I don't think removing wood from a handle would cause any lasting harm. For sure, you may feel the difference & the saw may feel a little bit more weighted toward the toe (though I think you'd have to remove a very large amount of wood for that to happen!), but saws vary hugely in the weight of the spine in any case. British manufacturers have long tended to make much heavier backs than American makers used on equivalent-sized saws, adding to the range of spine weights. People talk about the "balance" of a saw which has always puzzled me - an asymmetric thing like a saw is inherently im-balanced, so better to just say whether you like a heavy spine or a lighter one - there are pros & cons for each, & no absolutes, imo.

Two- your gents' saw is pretty typical of that sort of saw made over the last 40 or 50 years, cheap & cheerful. Spines have tended to get thinner & saw-plate thicker, which is not the best trend in my view, but that's what happened. Thick plate means you can't have very fine teeth because setting fine teeth on thick plate is very difficult to do neatly. Depending on just how thick the plate is, it may be worth using as the basis for a 'new' saw after fitting it with a new back - that's precisely how I got started in the business of saw-making. Alternatively, just keep it more or less as-is, make a new handle or stick the current one on (you can drive a peg of soft wood like pine in the hole to tighten it up), and use it as a "beater" - it's sometimes handy to have a rough saw you're not too fussy about, like when sawing a bit of recycled stuff that might contain hardware...

Mountain Ash - I suspect what you think are screws are actually sleeved rivets, hence the lack of slots. Theoretically, they should prise apart, but I've found it impossible to do so with those I've tried, the only way to get the handle off is to grind/file off the heads & punch them out. The holes in the saw plate will have been punched with the handle in place, so there will be dags of metal locking it on almost as firmly as the rivets. It can be quite a struggle to get such handles off! They give in eventually, after a bit of wriggling & tugging, and it usually doesn't rip the wood up too much so you should be able to re-use the existing handle but you'll need some new saw-bolts, of course. I wasn't worried about it too much in my cases since I was intending to replace the handle anyway. Mind you I think I have only pulled 2 or 3 such handles off, so hardly a large sample.....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Mountain Ash - I suspect what you think are screws are actually sleeved rivets, hence the lack of slots. Theoretically, they should prise apart, but I've found it impossible to do so with those I've tried, the only way to get the handle off is to grind/file off the heads & punch them out. The holes in the saw plate will have been punched with the handle in place, so there will be dags of metal locking it on almost as firmly as the rivets. It can be quite a struggle to get such handles off! They give in eventually, after a bit of wriggling & tugging, and it usually doesn't rip the wood up too much so you should be able to re-use the existing handle but you'll need some new saw-bolts, of course. I wasn't worried about it too much in my cases since I was intending to replace the handle anyway. Mind you I think I have only pulled 2 or 3 such handles off, so hardly a large sample.....

Cheers,

Ian

I have only ever tried to do this once and was surprised how easily they came apart. One attempt is hardly a definitive study of course! I had previously thought it was an impossible task (so I must have tried it at some other time on reflection) but on that occasion I used two suitable levers from opposite sides. Once you have got under the head and gained sufficient purchase it is child's play. The rivets were even reusable. It is true to say that much depends on how the rivets were originally applied to the handle, but most of this type sit on the surface of the handle.

Assuming you get to this point, when reassembling the handle I would use the bench vice to clamp the screws together again.

Regards
Paul

That's a nice find Andy, and it looks good restored too.
I find that handle to be very comfortable in the hand, and have seen no need to make changes to the shape.
Here is mine that you refer to - and I would say that it is my favourite of all my backsaws.

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I have managed to collect several backsaws over the years, and here are my three favourites:
Spear and Jackson, Taylor Brothers - Adelaide Works, and this little Disston

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I'm not sure if the Taylor Brothers saw always had the sloped blade, but that is how I found it about fifteen years ago

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The little Disston was at the bottom of a box of rust, and was filthy.
The box had gotten wet over the years and the rust had ebonised the back of the handle. Also there was pitting to the blade.
Still, it cleaned up nicely, and sings in the wood. Better it is such a great fit to my hand.

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One thing that should be mentioned in backsaw usage is the comfort of the saw in use. That includes the way your hand and the handle interact as well as the balance of the saw while cutting.
This is very important to me and I have onsold saws that don't fit this and can't be made to.
You look like you've got a good one there

Happy sawing
Tom

I realised I had the rivet style saw screws I mentioned before stored somewhere. Here they are:

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One screw has been cleaned up on a fibre wheel, but the others are as removed. The shank is very slim compared to the traditional threaded saw screws and the head profile also is slim. Being steel they are strong enough to resist the levering. I used the panel pin lifter shown on the right and one of my wide, saw screw drivers. I think I placed a nail crosswise to achieve leverage. Two screw drivers could be used in this way, but to get under the head of the rivet they will have to be quite slim. They can be gently tapped and "persuaded" into place beneath the head with a hammer.

I can see that they could be difficult to remove if the two components of the rivet rust together, which is a possibility being steel. However, that part of the rivet is fairly protected being underneath the handle. You only have to remove the handle from a vintage saw to see bright, almost untarnished steel, underneath that is not far off the condition it was when it left the factory. The exposed portion of the saw plate does not normally fare anywhere nearly as well!

Regards
Paul

Paul - you had better luck with the rivets than I did. I thought I could lever the damned things apart just as you did, but I could not budge them - I probably gave up too easily, but I wasn't really trying to preserve either handle or rivets, so after a brief attempt the angle-grinder came very quickly to hand...

Don't think I would try re-using the rivets, I doubt they would hold as well the second time around, but perhaps they will....

cheers,

Hi MA, the steel back SJ came with slotted screws so there was no issue removing the handle.
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The modern SJ with brass back, however, had been factory fitted with rivets before I replaced them with slotted screws. This is a poorly taken photograph of the original rivets that came with the saw. Can't see the heads on this photo but there isn't any slot on either side of the heads, similar to the rivets shown on Paul's (Bushmiller) pics. I took them out by levering using different size screwdrivers, starting from the smallest screwdriver I had available. The only downside is a few bruise marks around the rivets left by the levering action. Rex Kruger has a YT on this, though contrary to how easy it looks on the video, it was quite a struggle for me took take these rivets out.
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Sound suggestion Ian, I'll call it a day on the gents saw and use it as parts. The saw plate is quite thin, so maybe it can be re-used when having a go at making the back.

Thanks for the pic, SG - that's the SJ tenon saw that I saw in one of your previous posts. Yes, I'll keep the handle as it is. It doesn't look much, but is surprisingly comfortable to handle. Your other two saws look great, good to give old tools a new lease of life.

Cheers,
Andy