Thread: Four new saws (hmm 60+ yo maybe)

No 2 son slept in this morning

So I took the dodgy handle off Saw No 4 and did a bit of sandpaper work (around a block)

Here's a couple of photos after a little work

there is some etching on it but can't make it out - seems to be fairly large and outline letters, maybe in a bit of an arc
the metal looks good and looking at the teeth at the end I think it was a ripsaw


No 4 saw_2505.jpgNo 4 saw_2507.jpg

I'm curious to know what the original handle might have looked like as I have to make one up. The handle I removed is in a bad state and is obviously a dodgy repair.

there's 4 holes and I've outlined what the front edge of the handle may have looked like (going on a change in the shading of the metal)

I've looked through google images and nothing like it
The closest I've seen is in scribbly gum's blog on a sandvik but there the top nut is not on the same curve as the others

No 4 saw_2509.jpg


This is a Disston I picked up at the right price before xmas. Now it's not lonely

Disston_2512.jpg

They look like pretty big holes in that picture??

How do they compare to shaft of the sawnuts in diameter?

Thanks,
Paul

Originally Posted by pmcgee

They look like pretty big holes in that picture??

How do they compare to shaft of the sawnuts in diameter?

Thanks,
Paul

photos

No 4 saw_2533.jpgNo 4 saw_2539.jpg

definitely not a snug fit

I can get the calipers out tomorrow and measure correctly if you like

oh and of course it had two different saw nuts

Edge of blade coming through inside of handle?

No 3 saw arrow_2536.jpg

This saw is missing any medallion it might have had
and I noticed it has an odd saw nut as well

Nick

You are heading down a very addictive road .

A couple of links that might be of interest to you:

Sharpening Western Saws - YouTube

The Restoration of a 14" Tenon Saw #1: Identification, Historical Evidence and a Vivid Imagination - by Brit @ LumberJocks.com ~ woodworking community

The first one is a full length feature film so sit yourself down with a glass of your favourite brew. The second is a series of 30 blogs and covers a whole range of sawing scenarios and a some background history.

I think saw sharpening coverage on the net is only exceeded in saturation by the the #### industry (so I'm told ). There are many educational videos on U-tube. Paul Sellars, Roy Underhill etc. ect..

The two links above are by forum member Brit*al. He has an entertaining style and is not above the occasional digression .

Welcome to the addiction.

Regards
Paul

The first saw I'm tending to think is more modern.

In general, very early saws had square blade heels and the nuts straight up in a line ...



Compare to a couple of 'modern' saws ... say 50s, 60s ... from Disston and S&J ...

20140129_172419 (Medium).jpg

These are closer to that sweep of holes in your plate.

Regarding the second one ... no Saw plate in the grip area would be very uncomfortable.
I think you have handle transplant again.
You can see part of a hole in the blade peeking under the handle.
And I think maybe the last bolt isn't going through the blade??

Also - can we see a picture of the etch that you mentioned in your post, please.
You can try looking at it with WD40 or similar flooded over the area also ... sunlight, raking light, artificial light in a dark room, etc

The third saw with the multi-teeth is a pruning or farmer's saw I believe.

Cheers,
Paul

Cheers,
Paul

Originally Posted by pmcgee

20140129_172419 (Medium).jpg



The third saw with the multi-teeth is a pruning or farmer's saw I believe.

Cheers,
Paul

Cheers,
Paul

Paul

I nearly mentioned the same to Nick as it was my first thought. Then I remembered that even the leading names of the saw manufacturing industry made some multi purpose saws claiming them to be equally good at crosscutting, ripping, green timber, seasoned timber, hardwood and softwood! Of course if there were really true, why did they bother with anything else? So then I lost the courage of my conviction . However, if my life depended on the answer I would go with the pruner as the deep gullets are normally intended for cutting green, and sometimes, fluffy material.

Just on the saws above I'm pretty certain the top one is a Disston D-95. If I'm sounding knowledgeable here I'd better de-bunk that straight away and explain that I have one. Despite the plastic handle it was described as their "masterpiece" saw. The point I am so slow in getting to is that the swept back heel is unusual for Disston. My understanding is that the development of the handsaw had a long time before reached it's pinnacle and the manufacturers were desperately looking for points of difference. Hence the small difference in blade shape and a different material for the handle.

Sorry Nick, a small digression, which I hope you'll forgive. BTW if you have not yet found the Disstonian Institute on the net I would recommend that as a fascinating insight to the saws of one of the leading lights.

Disstonian Institute.com -- Online Reference of Disston Saws

However, that is just the start.

Regards
Paul

Nick

Many manufacturers used the "Warrented Superior" phrase. The thinking is that Disston produced them for others too. This may be true. However, the enduring nature of Disston was because they made some excellent saws, but also were up there with their marketing strategies. They may well have spread some mis-information.

In the case of your medallion, I think it would be a British made saw because of the "Dieu et mon Droit" inscription, but that is only a guess.

Regards
Paul

Paul and Paul

A thousand thankyous for your comments and pointers, they are muchly appreciated

I'll, attempt to, digest and get back to you later today (have to take someone, who is still on school hols, swimming)

cheers

Paul (Bushy)

Oh I think I might have been hooked after reading some of Mr McGee's (and others) stuff over time (very insidious style of brainwashing)
Thanks for the links
probably a better plot than most Hollywood movies.
I've watched a lot of it and will probably finish it later tonight. Interesting

so what is better that or Ron Herman's saw sharpening etc
here and here

Originally Posted by pmcgee

The first saw I'm tending to think is more modern.

In general, very early saws had square blade heels and the nuts straight up in a line ...



Compare to a couple of 'modern' saws ... say 50s, 60s ... from Disston and S&J ...

20140129_172419 (Medium).jpg

These are closer to that sweep of holes in your plate.

Quite possibly, however I was thinking it was one of his wife's uncle's saws. Only because I think No 4 saw is the one he bought 60ish years ago as he commented he built a house with it. He also thought it might be a Stanley (but seemed unsure) said "Stanleys are good tools". Then again I don't know how old his wife is, he's 92

Originally Posted by pmcgee

Regarding the second one ... no Saw plate in the grip area would be very uncomfortable.
I think you have handle transplant again.
You can see part of a hole in the blade peeking under the handle.
And I think maybe the last bolt isn't going through the blade??

I think that 'part of a hole' is a bit of white paint as I cant see any glimmer of light coming through on holding it up to the light.
Could be a transplant - I'll pull the bolts out and see what we find
The missing medallion hole seems to match up with the hole in the plate pretty well.

Originally Posted by pmcgee

Also - can we see a picture of the etch that you mentioned in your post, please.
You can try looking at it with WD40 or similar flooded over the area also ... sunlight, raking light, artificial light in a dark room, etc

It is so faint that I'm half expecting that I'm having myself on but will try a few methods and see what we'll come up with. I've tried angling it towards the light which is why I think there is a faint etch. I might try the brassing method if light sources don't work. Anyone got one of those dark lights? you know the ones, those that show dirty marks on your best shirt when you go to a disco!

On another note Saw No4 (the one with the medallion) seems to have an etch as well - I haven't done any cleaning on it as yet. The etch seems to be oval shaped and more towards the toe than centered on the blade.

Originally Posted by pmcgee

The third saw with the multi-teeth is a pruning or farmer's saw I believe.

Damn and I was hoping it was a rare surgeon's saw
So I should keep this one in the gardening shed rather than "THE Shed" (which is for woodwork and allied pursuits)

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

...

Sorry Nick, a small digression, which I hope you'll forgive. BTW if you have not yet found the Disstonian Institute on the net I would recommend that as a fascinating insight to the saws of one of the leading lights.

Disstonian Institute.com -- Online Reference of Disston Saws

However, that is just the start.

Regards
Paul

Digressions help with the learning process
and thanks I'd found the Disstonian but haven't really had a look as the old chap has led me to believe that these are probably English saws.

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Nick

Many manufacturers used the "Warrented Superior" phrase. The thinking is that Disston produced them for others too. This may be true. However, the enduring nature of Disston was because they made some excellent saws, but also were up there with their marketing strategies. They may well have spread some mis-information.

In the case of your medallion, I think it would be a British made saw because of the "Dieu et mon Droit" inscription, but that is only a guess.

I've searched google for medallions with nothing obviously similar to this one however the search continues.
Could that be a coat of arms? eh dunno

There's a medallion in the link below which looks almost identical to yours.
Martin, and Warranted Superior - Saw Discussion Forums

Another interesting article about warranted superior medallions: Saw Talk #30: Warranted Superior Medallions - by Brit @ LumberJocks.com ~ woodworking community

Originally Posted by Sawdust Maker

Damn and I was hoping it was a rare surgeon's saw
So I should keep this one in the gardening shed rather than "THE Shed" (which is for woodwork and allied pursuits)

Nick

A little bit of provenance perhaps? One careful owner, Mr J Ripper. Perhaps that's where the phrase "you little ripper" emanates .

Almost certainly should not be allowed in "THE shed."

On the subject of sharpening, I think all the "experts" probably end up with similar results and I wouldn't like to say who is best. I think the essential element is understanding just how a saw cuts and exactly what you want to achieve always having in the back of your mind that a style of sharpening suits a particular type of cutting. For any other type of cutting that same style will be a compromise at best.

One aspect that has recently interested me and is a departure, I think, from traditional techniques is the "sloped gullet." This interests me from my milling days where I often increased the depth of the gullet on my bandsaw blade to assist sawdust removal. Having said that, I have not yet tried it, but with a few saws to play with I am intend to evaluate it's worth. It may only be worthwhile on saws 10ppi and finer. We'll see and I would welcome anybody's thoughts on this.

Regards
Paul

What are you guys trying to do to me? Great link by the way.
Andy/Brit had a link to ... Saws, using collecting, cleaning and buying - by Don W @ LumberJocks.com ~ woodworking community
starts off mentioning a Boynton saw and a Wheeler Madden & Clemson saw ... and has 5800 entries!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There goes the weekend.

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

One aspect that has recently interested me and is a departure, I think, from traditional techniques is the "sloped gullet." This interests me from my milling days where I often increased the depth of the gullet on my bandsaw blade to assist sawdust removal. Having said that, I have not yet tried it, but with a few saws to play with I am intend to evaluate it's worth. It may only be worthwhile on saws 10ppi and finer. We'll see and I would welcome anybody's thoughts on this.
Regards
Paul

There is a whole debate over the sloped gullets idea ... that maybe has died down a bit now. I think Michael Merlo and Daryl Weir have had words over it.
Brent Beach has modelled it in SketchUp, and Isaac Smith of Blackburn Tools has included it (from the pov of Point Slope) on his webpage.
At the bottom he links to Brent Beach, Leif Hanson and more from himself. Blackburn Tools - saw tooth geometry

Eg, even of Leif's page he says you can't "have sloping gullets on a rip-filed saw". I don't believe that is true, unless you have a very narrow definition of what a rip tooth can look like.

There's also discussion about whether it is "traditional". The guys at Colonial Williamsburg use saws without fleam (so only degrees of rake) as they understand that fleam was not used in their period (1700-1780). In fact ... see their saws! The Saw Wright | Peter Follansbee, joiner's notes

By 1900 or so, with machine sharpening predominating, there wouldn't be any sloping happening there either ... and after that the handsaw was used less and less.

I haven't seen any of the wooden held-in-a-bench-vice type saw vices that tilt over that I can remember, but some of the portable, stand-on-the-floor-and-put-your-foot-on-to-stabilise ones held the saw over at an angle ... Roy Underhill has one in a video.
And some of the cast-iron saw-vices tilt over, so filing flat would give you a sloped gullet.

I know very little about backsaws and little teeth, but when teeth are small enough, rip vs xcut starts to become a non-issue ... probably the same for slope I'm guessing. I'd like to know more about it and experiment when I can ... I believe I gathered a text file of links to make a thread about at some stage.

Cheers,
Paul