Thread: Saw score or just junk - Disston

Looks like a Disston K1 Mitre Box Saw; the original saw plate length would have been a lot longer than 10 inches.

I agree that it looks like a longer saw that has been chopped.

It's of one of the later Disston vintages. I think they changed the medallion one more time before they stopped making saws. This one is likely from the late 40's or 50's I'd say (without double checking at disstonianinstitute.com , which is a great, but far from comprehensive, resource).

10" is getting down into the dovetail saw lengths. If you did put a crosscut profile on it and use it as a carcase saw, it would need to be for smaller work.

But it should excel at that!

By no means trash, but by no means treasure. I'd say it's worth the $12. If you're actually going to use it then it may even be worth the price to have it sharpened.

Good find.

Cheers,
Luke

The thicker saw plate generally used on miter box saws of that depth of plate and vintage will limit its use outside of its intended purpose. The original tooth profile would have been a more relaxed rake angle.

Originally Posted by Luke Maddux

I agree that it looks like a longer saw that has been chopped....

Dunno how you blokes determined this? The spine and blade end are neatly cut, and the end of the spine is slightly pinched, as they usually are - would someone cutting down a saw bother to do that? And is 13 points a common pitch for a mitre saw? I'd expect a longer saw might have had a coarser pitch, but not necessarily, of course.

Anyway, 10" makes a good small carcase saw, imo, and the grip is set at an appropriate hang angle, so I see no reason why it can't make a perfectly good saw for you. Making a new handle could tart it up, but in the meantime, a bit of work with a rasp & sandpaper could greatly improve the tactile qualities of the current thing.

So it costs $35 to have a small saw sharpened now? No wonder so many have turned to disposable blades...

Cheers,

"So it costs $35 to have a small saw sharpened now? No wonder so many have turned to disposable blades... "

When I spoke to the Sharpener he was apologetic and recommended that I buy cheap hardened point disposables, he was pleased to hear that there are still some folks who appreciate his craft. I have dropped my carpentry saw in to him and will give this a cleanup and drop it off when I pick up the other one.

A new handle is a must, the plates of meet that I have for hands means that the lower horn sticks into my palm. A member (thank you Stewie) was kind enough to send me a drawing of a suitable handle, and it will be an interesting project for someone who has not previously done curves and rounded corners in wood by hand will be quite a learning experience.

I'm not a full blown greenie, but I am from a generation that looks to repair before replace, mind you, that also makes me a hoarder........

Quote..."I'm not a full blown greenie, but I am from a generation that looks to repair before replace, mind you, that also makes me a hoarder.."

I would say that statement puts you in company with many others who have the same experience/thinking.
A mate rang the other day to get me to give him a hand to change over a roll-a-door. He said the existing one was "no good" because it was too heavy to lift. Hence the change over. He said he was going to the tip on the way home to get rid of it. I told him that there would probably be nothing wrong with it and he should at least, give it a chance to redeem itself. Whether he will or not I don't know

$35AUD ($25.33USD) to sharpen a saw? I need to charge more...

I'm a self taught amateur at saw doctoring, however I seem to get pleasing results. Whilst there's a place for hardpoint saws (synthetic sheet material principally) there's something intrinsically endearing in the way a well tuned saw sings through hardwood.

I've been occasionally asked to apply my skills to other's saws: something I don't particularly like, but I've found the expression on client's faces very rewarding when they either try it out or I demonstrate the set with a darning needle.

Nevertheless, It's still a job that fills me with dread as, due to slowly failing eyesight, I'm pretty slow at the task. It's not difficult, but very time consuming to do a proper job. A simple set and sharpen will take me 30-60 mins, whereas a full retooth, breast, top, set & sharpen can take me 3-4 hours to accomplish properly. I never charged more than about $15 or so for even the longest job, as I always thought that to charge more would actually dissuade people from properly maintaining their handsaws.

The net result however, is that it's just not economically feasible to sharpen anybody else's saws. Fifteen dollars for up to four hour's work is just plain dumb.

Originally Posted by Ratbag

I never charged more than about $15 or so for even the longest job.

Well Ratty, I think you've just achieved an instant, and lengthy, waiting list. We can send them over on a pallet.

Originally Posted by planemaker

The thicker saw plate generally used on miter box saws of that depth of plate and vintage will limit its use outside of its intended purpose. The original tooth profile would have been a more relaxed rake angle.

I like having a small saw with a heavy plate. It's sort of like paring with a mortise chisel, lacks finesse but has abundant authority.

Originally Posted by bridger

I like having a small saw with a heavy plate. It's sort of like paring with a mortise chisel, lacks finesse but has abundant authority.

That's interesting to me, bridger. I'm just about to make a saw from a piece of a very well-used 26" D8. I cut out a bit 12 x 3" from as close to the toe end as I could fit it, to get the thinnest bit of the original saw, but the saw was so worn down, I had to start well back. The tooth line will be a pretty constant 28 thou thick, plus or minus a smidgin. It tapers to about 5 thou less at the toe end of the piece I cut out, but not as much toward what will be the heel end (these are all very rough measurements, haven't cleaned it up properly yet, so they might end up less than that. It's going to be a bit thicker all-up than I wanted, and I was feeling a little disappointed, so reading your post has given me hope that it will still be a worthwhile exercise.

My main aim is to try a tapered blade on a backsaw just to see what difference it makes. I fully expect that it won't do much for me, but I will never know if I don't try it, will I?

Cheers,

Ian,

I am interested in what difference you think the taper might make? If the set is constant for the length of the saw then it is unlikely to affect the kerf from my understanding, or is the intention to narrow the set towards the point?

If you narrow the set, is that likely to cause the saw to "jam" on the end of the push stroke? I would speculate that with a tapered set it could make for uneven kerf line depenign on the consistency of your saw strokes.

Not claiming any expertise, just throwing some thoughts out there to allow others to inform me......

Or have I gopt it all wrong and the taper you speak of is in terms of depth of cut from heel to toe?

Originally Posted by Thylacene

Ian,

I am interested in what difference you think the taper might make? If the set is constant for the length of the saw then it is unlikely to affect the kerf from my understanding, or is the intention to narrow the set towards the point?

If you narrow the set, is that likely to cause the saw to "jam" on the end of the push stroke? I would speculate that with a tapered set it could make for uneven kerf line depenign on the consistency of your saw strokes.

Not claiming any expertise, just throwing some thoughts out there to allow others to inform me......

Or have I gopt it all wrong and the taper you speak of is in terms of depth of cut from heel to toe?

Thylacene, the taper in sawplate thickness is essentially "bottom to top", there is, or should be, little change in thickness along the tooth line. Otherwise, it would, exactly as you suggest, create a few problems in sawing! The idea is to relieve the friction above the teeth, so that the saw can run with little or no set. Having said that, the taper isn't the same from toe to heel; the toe end tapers to a thinner edge (it's well demonstrated here). This means that if you cut a blade out of a very worn old saw, you are likely to end up with blade that tapers along its length as well as width, which is not desirable. In the event, I was able to get my blade without that problem, but it dos have a slightly uneven 'bottom to top' taper.

Having no set is a bit of a holy grail, and I don't want to debate its pros & cons here. 'Setting' saws is a simple enough procedure that is easy to do, & well established. But, setting a saw always introduces small irregularities in the teeth. This is for several reasons, one being the teeth themselves vary a bit on hand-sharpened saws (or extremely, in some cases! ). However, even if the teeth are perfectly regular, where you place the setting pliers against the tooth and exactly how you squeeze the handles cannot be identical every time, so these will introduce small differences. You can see the results on the cut surface, as a repeating series of regular scratches of slightly different depth. These can be reduced by running a stone along the sides of the teeth after sharpening (use a hard stone, not a water stone). Just a light wipe, or maybe two, usually cleans them up (& you give one side an extra wipe if there is any tendency to cut to that side). You won't eliminate the irregularities of your cut entirely, because some of the raggedness comes from 'wobble' as you saw, which is influenced by tooth size & physical characteristics of the saw such as weight, depth of blade, handle placement as well as how practiced you are.

So it's pretty difficult getting a hand saw to produce a perfect cut surface. In 99% of cases, it doesn't matter a hoot, the cut end is going to be well hidden inside a joint, or removed later in some other procedure, but if the end does have to be perfect, you cut fractionally oversize & shoot it (or cut them on a well-tuned tablesaw using a good quality cut-off blade. ). But if you have a tendency to OCD and want perfect cuts off your hand saw, then you will need to address this minor tooth irregularity thing (as well as learn to hold & move your saw like a machine). One approach to that is to eliminate the setting step......

Apologies for the long-winded answer - got a bit carried away...

As one who tapers saw blades I can say that there really is a difference. Disston handsaws are generally tapered, though only around 0.005" or so from toothline to spine. Disston did however make the No. 77 saw which required no set as it had a taper ground plate. I have two of Mike Wenzloff's #77 tapered saws and it is very apparent that tapering is beneficial (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...-no-77-backsaw). Both saws have relatively deep cutting depths, on the order of 4" to 5.5". In fact, there's one for sale right now on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wenzloff-Dis...sAAOSwZVhWSoHw. The saws are very fast cutting because of the absence of set and binding, even in difficult wood, is non-existent. The taper on these saws is more like 0.010" or so.