Thread: How sharp should marking gauge be?

Hi David

Sorry, I was thinking of this Starrett ...



The Starrett is for working steel. The Stanley would be for marking wood.

Nevertheless, a double bevelled knife/wheel/cutter will leave a V-groove, no matter how light one goes (I start out light, but the business area needs to be deepened). This will not be as accurate as a single bevel wheel. For the dovetails I build, there would be a difference.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Igaging have been in touch and I may be able to get some replacement wheels so I have started a new thread HERE calling for expressions of interest in a group buy.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Hi David

Sorry, I was thinking of this Starrett ...



The Starrett is for working steel. The Stanley would be for marking wood.

Nevertheless, a double bevelled knife/wheel/cutter will leave a V-groove, no matter how light one goes (I start out light, but the business area needs to be deepened). This will not be as accurate as a single bevel wheel. For the dovetails I build, there would be a difference.

Regards from Perth

Derek

The mark is so shallow that I'd bet you'd plane it off. But I don't have time to make one set each of dovetails to prove it. Realistically, a thousandth or two of compression would remove most of the line, anyway. I don't know that I've seen a piece of furniture where it would make a difference, but beginners may prefer a deep narrow knife line just to register a chisel.

Ahha .... David, we have been discussing this with different priorities in mind. I have cut a lot of dovetails over time, posted many builds in my time, and the focus of these has been technique ... dovetailing technique in this instance. You appear more concerned with the aesthetics - planing away the layout marks ... whereas I use the marks to remove waste precisely.

The baseline is used to form a chisel wall ...



Waste is sawn away ...



... and the chisel wall makes it possible to retain the baseline ...




It all start with a sharply defined scribed line by the marking gauge. This can start with a light line, but the line needs to be deepened for the chisel wall. A V-groove will force the line backward. A single-bevelled cutter is needed.

Yes, later the lines can be planed away. That is my preference as well. But they are needed at the start.

Scribe lines are either gone or very faint ...



Regards from Perth

Derek

Yes, I'd suppose the difference is what we're aiming for. I cut dovetails sometimes a couple of times a year. Sometimes more, but I haven't cut any but a small box this year (courtesy of seemingly endless experiments with steel and chisels).

I like the v wheel on the stanley type, and same with japanese gauges (but not always), to have a slight v on the back side of the knife so it stays in place and is easy to mark with and not too deep.

The only problem with the pizza wheel cutters is some have been abused and they're rounded over more than I'd like. Just not the ones I'd have. They are also far harder to damage (the wheels) than the veritas type and they spin/roll very nicely. It's a nice gauge, but a modified cutter would need to be made for it for someone who really liked a deep knife line.

I don't know if anyone makes wheels for those gauges as I've always found the gauges probably cheaper than wheels would be, and ...I already live the sin of too many marking gauges.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Hi David

Sorry, I was thinking of this Starrett ...



The Starrett is for working steel. The Stanley would be for marking wood.

Nevertheless, a double bevelled knife/wheel/cutter will leave a V-groove, no matter how light one goes (I start out light, but the business area needs to be deepened). This will not be as accurate as a single bevel wheel. For the dovetails I build, there would be a difference.

Regards from Perth

Derek

(i like that starrett gauge, by the way, but I like it because I would probably do well to use it for metal. At this point, I'm using a triangular stanley gauge with a hardened nail and it works OK, but I won't go into how I get it to mark steel (it's ghetto)

It may be inconsequential, but I don't love gauges that tear wood fibers, which is what makes the stanley 97 (or 98 - even better, but they seem to have gone up a lot) kind of nice if you like a less deep line - it makes a mark similar to that starrett gauge, but no torn fibers and it's indifferent to pressure (so if you desire, you can just mash it through a single mark, or do it over and over).

I've made a couple of hundred mortises over the last 4 or 5 years, and I just realized because of this discussion that the stanley gauge is far better at mortises (where the line doesn't need to be a knife line, it just needs to be made easily and accurately) than either my japanese gauge or a filed english pin gauge).

Has LV said anything along the lines of basing their wheel gauge on that starrett gauge? It looks a lot alike, but there are probably others. The round body lends itself well to CNC lathe-make (the stanley 90/97/98 are obviously cast bodies, but it's stanley, so what else would one expect).

The fact that they have a fat nail on one end of the rods makes me wonder who Stanley was aiming for (edit: I found a 1934 catalog - it doesn't describe, so I guess "everyone". And the pins aren't listed as fat scribes - I guess whoever had mine just wore the pins blunt and never fixed them.)

They weren't inexpensive, but no more in context than something from LV now, and practically free compared to the largest miter boxes (one could buy 18 #98 two ended double rod cast marking gauges for the price of one 28x5 saw miter boxes - could literally buy a 4,5 and 7 plane new - twice - for the same price as a miter box).

A simple (but sharp) pin scored end grain best when marking out a tenon. I find it less secure in other faces, where it can follow the grain.

The best cutter for overall work, in my experience, is a Japanese knife/cutting gauge. It is excellent across the grain, and capable of clean end grain marking.

As with all marking out, always take light strokes at first until the line has severed surface fibres. Then score deeply without fear of tearout.

The very best Japanese mortice gauge is the Kinshiro on the right. The gauge on the left is one a single cutter gauge I made a few of. These are my go to gauges ...





Inspired by the Kinshiro, I made a mortice gauge with preset cutters. These drop into a cassette ..







Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

A simple (but sharp) pin scored end grain best when marking out a tenon. I find it less secure in other faces, where it can follow the grain.

The best cutter for overall work, in my experience, is a Japanese knife/cutting gauge. It is excellent across the grain, and capable of clean end grain marking.

As will all marking out, always take light strokes at first until the line has severed surface fibres. Then score deeply without fear of tearout.

The very best Japanese mortice gauge is the Kinshiro on the right. The gauge on the left is one a single cutter gauge I made a few of. These are my go to gauges ...





Inspired by the Kinshiro, I made a mortice gauge with preset cutters. These drop into a cassette ..







Regards from Perth

Derek

the "pizza wheels" do a good job of both end and long grain - hard to describe them - think of running a pizza cutter with just a small intentional amount of bluntness in the center and not elsewhere.

I can see using them why they are the way they are (but on wood that's getting harder than rosewood where the pins don't have so much drag, they may be behind the pin gauges.

On cherry and beech, though, the pizza wheels are great.

I have just tried to sharpen my wheel, turns out it is not flat from factory lol

See the black paint that is left on the rim?

I mean painting it seems to be counter intuitive anyway....

Anyway, I lapped it flat to 0.5 micron and used my palm to get rid of the bur. It is better but still not sharp like cosmans. The bevel side is also painted...

Seems like a dud product...

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

I think you might have got a Friday arvo special; mine is definitely flat and sharpens great. The issue with mine is that it has now sharpened so thin the securing screw is slightly proud.

Anyhoo I now have a supplier, click on THIS THREAD if you want one.

Were you able to get yours as sharp as rob cosmans in that video? Sharp enough to slice that pine?

Those with experience with veritas - is the veritas one THAT sharp out of the box?

edit:
Ill just put this here for future reference of others - 1x sharpening of my wheel bought the cutter basically flush to the screw and out of the box it was not sharp therefore my wheel could only be sharpened once

Originally Posted by qwertyu

Were you able to get yours as sharp as rob cosmans in that video? Sharp enough to slice that pine?

Those with experience with veritas - is the veritas one THAT sharp out of the box?

edit:
Ill just put this here for future reference of others - 1x sharpening of my wheel bought the cutter basically flush to the screw and out of the box it was not sharp therefore my wheel could only be sharpened once

I can do this with Veritas, Tite-Mark and Japanese knifes.

I have posted this technique many times over the years, describing using the gauge/cutter as a router plane. Below is a bow front drawer. The curved front in scored with a cutter, and then a wide chisel is used to sever the junction ...




You can see how cleanly the waste is removed.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Tite-Mark is quite a bit more expensive than the Veritas - is there much difference between the 2?

Any recommendations for quality japanese ones?

I sharpened my igaging one to a mirror finish but there is no way to address the bevel side and it still not SHARP. eg with sharp chisels/plane blades Im worried about touching the edge, with this wheel I can hold it no problems. Its much better then original but there is definitely some compression happening when trying to mark a line

edit:
rob cosman's are probably our of my price range - but he has larger cutters. Ever felt like a larger cutter out be helpful?

Hi Q. I have a Veritas micro adjust version and it's fantastic. Sharpened the disc yesterday and slices even better. Would recommend it without hesitation.