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  1. #1
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    Nov 2011
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    Default sharpening a 12 inch 14 PPI tennon saw

    I own a Lloyd Davies (Sheffield) tennon saw.
    14 PPI; 12" long & blunt.
    Being completely inexperienced with saw sharpening I asked a local specialist tool grinder & sharpener to resharpen for me.
    To my amazement they said our equipment will not allow us to sharpen such fine teeth & sorry we can't even sell you a suitable file.
    I asked if they had an older tradesman sawyer who would maybe have the necessary skill & files. Sorry no!
    Tried one other reputable mobile saw & tool sharpener who also said "no thanks".
    I now have read the .pdf file on saw file tests (published here) which are not exactly encouraging for anyone wishing to start from scratch.
    I have some options - persevere or buy a newer hard point. But new hard point tennons don't feel as good & generally are courser.
    Looking for guidance on this please.

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  3. #2
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    Default

    This subject was recently discussed in this thread - Dovetail Saws As you would expect there was a range of views expressed.

  4. #3
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    Hi Peter, have a look at Paul Sellars on YouTube, he does some videos on saw sharpening where he explains very simply how to sharpen both rip cut and cross cut.
    I had never sharpened a saw until about 12 months ago when I saw his video. My tenon saw is 12 tpi and I just have a Bunnings triangular file which works fine.

    I am sure if you went to carbatec or somewhere similar they would dedicated files for a price, but so far the file I have is ok. When I need to sharpen my dovetail saw I will invest in a better file though,

    Hope this helps
    George

  5. #4
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    Hi Peter, & welcome to the hand-tool world...

    I'm a bit surprised the sharpening place couldn't handle 14tpi on their machinery - that's not an exceptionally fine pitch. The place where I take my circular saws (Peacock's) can manage 15 tpi, but I wasn't too impressed with the result on the one & only hand saw I took there for sharpening - it went in as a crossscut & came out as a rip. As you've discovered, no-one does hand filing commercially round these parts any more, or if they do, they remain pretty quiet about it. Your best bet is to teach yourself. If your saw is filed as a ripsaw (i.e. straight across), the job is much easier. If it's a crosscut, you are on a step learning curve.

    The file situation isn't as dire as it was when the 'great file test' was done (6 years ago), a few brands have lifted their game sufficiently that you can buy with a reasonable degree of confidence - Bahco, Nicholson & Pferd are all usually tolerable. For that size tooth I suggest a 4 inch extra slim taper should handle it. (No affiliation but I've bought from these people a few times & they seem reliable & prompt, but there are other suppliers if you search around the web).

    You will also need a saw-set of some kind - if your saw is super dull, it probably hasn't been set in ages, either.

    This is a pretty good primer on saw sharpening for beginners - it'll give you the theory, and watching someone doing it on the numerous videos on U-tube might give you a clue or two.

    You need a saw vise of some sort (again, numerous examples of DIY saw vises on the web), good light, switch your phone off, and away you go. Don't expect a perfect result first time, but you'll improve with practice, & even a not-very-well-sharpened saw cuts better than an absolutely dull one...

    Cheers,
    IW

  6. #5
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    Thanks Ian,
    I thought all tennons were essentially cross cut, but I guess if you are doing dovetails you need to cut with the grain?
    I don't do dovetails, just not the kind of stuff that interests me.
    I have already viewed most of the (generally very good) Youtube videos & watched Pauls also.
    At least one such suggested there was no need to introduce a set to the teeth, which I must say surprised me.
    Note your file recommendation but you did not suggest a source?
    I can easily make up a saw vice.
    You don't say whether it would be sensible to just buy a decent hard point, with maybe 12 PPI ?
    Finally what do I make of this, an extract from a link you provided:
    "You should be able to easily see the teeth when you are filing"
    Truth is even with reading glasses the darkened teeth are difficult to observe when the saw can be freely moved about .............when it's in a vice & you are working from above ????

  7. #6
    Join Date
    May 2011
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    Albury
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    Ian's suggestion of a '4 inch extra slim taper' file is actually a link to Gasweld Tools, you just have to click on the red underlined text and it takes you to their site. As far as seeing the teeth goes the only suggestion I can make is more light and maybe magnifying specs.

  8. #7
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    Hobart, Tas
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterlonz View Post
    Thanks Ian,
    You don't say whether it would be sensible to just buy a decent hard point, with maybe 12 PPI ?
    Hi Peter.

    While I'm not as knowledgeable as lots of others here, I recently went through the process of removing the hard point teeth from my tenon say, and cutting in new ones (after I ruined the teeth whilst trying to "enhance" it). My experience was that it made the saw a whole lot more enjoyable to use. I don't know if all hard point saws are like mine was, but there was lots of set on the teeth, making it hard to be accurate with. I also found it to be grabby (for lack of a better term). I find the same with my larger hard point hand saw. Have a crack at learning to sharpen, it's just another learnable skill, and with some trial and error you will get there.

    Kind regards,
    Lance

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterlonz View Post
    .......I thought all tennons were essentially cross cut, but I guess if you are doing dovetails you need to cut with the grain? .....
    .....I have already viewed most of the (generally very good) Youtube videos & watched Pauls also.
    At least one such suggested there was no need to introduce a set to the teeth, which I must say surprised me.......
    Peter, there is so much confusion around the names we give to small saws with spines: 'tenon', 'dovetail', 'carcase', 'sash' etc. They've become meaningless (try & find a clear definition of any of the above!). I have gravitated to the term "backsaw" for all of them, and simply specify length, tpi & either rip or crosscut. Then at least I know what I'm talking about!

    I always think of a tenon saw as having rip teeth, myself. The shoulders are cut across the grain, of course, but the majority of the sawing for most tenons will be for the cheeks, for which rip teeth are most approriate.

    In your case, at 14tpi, you are getting close to the point where it doesn't make much difference if the teeth are filed with fleam or straight across, for cross-cutting. I don't bother filing any saw with 18 or more teeth to the inch as a crosscut unless specially requested, or I'm feeling bored & want to challenge myself. I have seen people make claims to the contrary, but in my experience, a rip profile (as long as it's sharp) will always do better at ripping, so if I only had one saw & wanted to use it both ways, I'd file it rip - the easiest profile for a beginner to manage. You might get a bit more blow-out at the back of the cut when cross-cutting with the 'wrong' profile, but it depends on the wood, and it may not matter in the scheme of things. I certainly don't fuss too much about the end of a tenon, which is going inside a mortise & won't be seen again. For the shoulders, saw 0.5mm to the waste side of the line, then square & neated the cut by chopping down with a sharp chisel. You cab get tighter, neater tenon shoulders that way than with any saw.

    The most important thing about a saw is that it has sharp & well-set teeth. Whoever claims a saw doesn't need set hasn't done much hand-sawing, I'd say. Even tapered saws that are claimed to run without set, will only cut to a reasonable depth if sharpened in a particular way, and they have to be kept very sharp to go on working well. Setting teeth just makes your life a whole lot easier. Over-setting isn't good, the saw will wobble & be hard to keep to a line. And setting one side more than the other is also not good - the saw will veer towards the side with more set & you'll have a devil of a time trying to cut a straight line.

    Hard-point saws? I guess I've been guilty of maligning the poor things, but they have their place. If you just want to hack up a few bits of wood now & then, & precision sawing is not required, then I don't think I'd want to be bothered learning to sharpen saws. When new, they cut well enough, & about 80% of the cheapies even cut straight. What tends to happen is that they start to dull, but like carbide circular saws, you don't really notice at first, & it's not until you find yourself working up a sweat sawing a bit of Balsa in half that you realise it's time to go buy a new one. That's a slight exaggeration, perhaps, but you get the drift. The other thing I don't like are those plastic handles! Quite apart from the feel of the things, the handles on most of the hard-point backsaws I've looked at are set too high, with the grip at an angle that is not very suited to most of the jobs you want to do with a backsaw. Apart from that, they are fine...

    Quote Originally Posted by peterlonz View Post
    ....."You should be able to easily see the teeth when you are filing"

    Truth is even with reading glasses the darkened teeth are difficult to observe when the saw can be freely moved about .............when it's in a vice & you are working from above ????....
    Yep! Know just what you mean. My looking gear gave up on anything finer than 6 tpi years ago. The only way I can manage to file any saw now is to use a magnifier. You can use something like a "Magi-lamp", but the focal point has to move with you as you go along the saw, so they are far from convenient. When a saw hasn't been sharpened for a while, the fresh shiny metal is easy to see from above,so it's not hard to keep track, at least on the first pass.

    You can buy cheap headband magnifiers from various places for $20 or less. They work amazingly well for the price, but as your eyes become more & more challenged by time, you might want to move to slightly better quality ones. Mine gets used almost all day every day these days, just so I can read the 1mm divisions on a rule. It really galls me sometimes, how poor my eyesight has become, but I guess it happens to the best of us....

    As an old friend says, a few inconveniences of ageing are better than the alternative!

    Cheers,
    IW

  10. #9
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    Thanks Lance& Ian,
    I have a good deal of gear but no magnifier suited to the saw sharpening role. I do fix watches as a hobby so the headgear, lupes, & the like, are plentiful around here.
    But sitting in well lit environment with a lupe focal distance of maybe only 6 to 10 cm is not the saw sharpening environment by a long shot.
    BTW I also need my specs to see & mark the mm divisions on my steel rule.
    I have no idea where I will find a tooth set device that can do 14 ppi & so with that in mind, the cost of the file (Delivered), the need to make a vice & shortcomings in skill level I have decided to forget this & Buy a hard point from Bunnings. If it cuts poorly or is awkward to use I will return it.
    Remember I don't do dovetails, just never had the need.
    Thanks again for the lengthy replies & the associated effort.
    Peter O

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