Thread: First saw sharpening!

Wow, dude, that's a lot questions for someone who's already sharpened the saw !!

The pros will undoubtedly correct me on the specifics but as a new saw sharpener with a clutch of S&J's I'll pretend to know what I'm talking about.

First issue, how many teeth on this bad boy? In gross terms - fewer teeth, more set. But the saw plate has an impact too, I've got some very nice older S&J's with a good taper and fairly thin plate and I have a 70's meat cleaver that would need the teeth set sideways to get it's fat #### through a stick... At least that's how it seems to me.

Which leads to the next issue, the saw file you want is dependent on the size of the teeth. There are lots of lists on the net specifying which file for which saw, but, without putting too fine a point on it, use a small one for small teeth and a bigger one for big teeth Roughly speaking the rule I have heard and abide by is that one side of the file should be slightly more than double the height of a tooth.

I am yet to find saw files in Brissie and buy them on-line.

I've put shellac and bees wax on the handles I've done and it feels good is wearing well and is a snap to apply.

Hold tight for better advice

Matt

Originally Posted by chook

1. Want a rip saw so I filed the teeth that way. It seems that the teeth were filed with a negative rake. I think that is the right term. The trailing edge of each gullet is leaning slightly backwards. I have simply copied what was there but I am prepared to try something else if required. My Veritas rip saw has the trailing edge vertical. What do I do?

2. Tomorrow I intend to set the teeth. How much set is enough?

3. The handle needs help. Once cleaned up what is a good finish to put on the handle of a saw that will be used rather than looked at?

4. Where, preferably in Brisbane, can I buy files for saws.

5. I presume that not all files are created equally and that there are different types of files for different types of saws. Is this true?

When this saw is working I will go back to the markets and get some other saw and turn it into a cross cut saw. Looking forward that.

Congratulations on taking the leap. Sometimes the fear of starting is worse than the actual job.

1. The amount of rake depends mainly on the woods you are cutting, and to a lesser extent, how nice you want the cut surface to be. The harder the wood, the less rake you can put into the saw before it starts to catch. You want the face of the tooth to be as close to vertical so that your cutting speed is maximized. Here is a more detailed explanation.

2. This depends on the woods you are cutting, the amount of taper in the saw blade, and how smooth you want the cut to be. I generally aim for about 0.006" - 0.015" (0.015 - 0.038 mm if my conversion is correct). This is quite a range, so keep in mind that it is easier to add set than to remove it. If the saw was last sharpened and set by a machine, and you did not remove much of the teeth, it is most likely overset, and you will need to remove it by filing deeper, dressing the sides of the teeth, or squeezing out some of the excess set (not an easy thing to do without a milling machine vise or press). Here is a little more information on set.

3. Just about anything will work. Just don't put a lot of it on. You really don't want a thick film finish on a working saw.

4. Absolutely nothing to offer here...

5. If by different types of files you mean sizes, then yes. Wenzloff has a good chart for the different sizes. If you mean files for filing different tooth patterns (such as two-man crosscut saws), then that is a totally different topic.


What is the ppi/tpi count of the saw? If it's very coarse, you may be looking at retoothing it entirely to end up with crosscut teeth of a desirable size.

Hi Chook,
There's good information HERE.
Grobet files are the best files currently avaliable, and there's a good file chart HERE.
Tru-Oil is a tough, easy to use finish.

Toby

Chook, I think the 'primer' Toby pointed you to is a very good place to start, and will answer most of your questions very well.

Isaac's info on rake angles is excellent & very clear.

To give you a bit of input with a local flavour, how much set you need depends on:
1) The saw:
Crosscuts usually run better with a little more set than a rip of equivalent tooth size, & taper-ground saws need less set than flat-plate saws.

2) The wood to be cut:
In general,you can use minimal set on our hard woods, especially if they are very dry, but you need more set to cut wood at a high MC, and generally, softwoods need a little more set than hardwoods, but that's by no means invariable.

As Isaac sez, start with a little set rather than a lot, because you can easily add more, but taking it off evenly isn't so easy. Don't fall for the furphy that the numbers on the saw-set anvil correspond to the tpi, they are there so you can set it at the correct place (once you find it) for each of your saws. You are supposed to set the top 1/3rd of the tooth. However, given plunger variations & the size of the chamfer on the anvils, this is near-imposssible with small teeth, but try not to push too much of the tooth over, or you'll get dimples between every tooth. You want the root of the tooth & the saw plate itself to remain straight.

Trial & error is a good way to learn what set works best for each of your saws, but if you want to get very technical about it, & have a feeler gauge & some reasonably accurate vernier calipers, a set that gives you a kerf that is between 15 & 20% wider than the saw plate thickness seems to work well in our woods.........

If you find a good source of saw files in Brisbane, please let us all in on the secret. Easiest way to get your files is to buy them online. L.N. Australia (no affiliation, just another occasional customer!) have the right sizes, and a size chart on their web page, to make it easy for you.

Finally, don't use dull files - you will get uneven results, & very frustrated. I cannot say how many saws a single file will sharpen, because it obviously depends on how many fangs have to be filed, and if serious tooth re-forming is required or just a touch-up, not to mention the hardness of the plate (some old saws are tough!). Your technique will also have a bearing - firm but not heavy strokes are the go. As a rough rule of thumb, I can get up to maybe a dozen sharpenings from a new file, but I sharpen pretty regularly & a few light strokes per tooth is usually sufficient.

Have fun, saw sharpening is a very useful skill to acquire......
Cheers,

My meagre contribution is limited to point 4.

Can't say anything about finding saw files in a bricks and mortar store in Brisbane, but if you don't object to using the interwebs then any store in Europe will offer very reasonable shipping.

I'd recommend Dieter Schmid Fine Tools (the saw files there are made by Grobet and are of excellent quality) or classichandtools.com.

Lee Valley also sell them, including with a handy canvas role thingie, but shipping is very expensive.

interesting thread, thanks

To all those who took the time to point my nose in the right direction, thank you. All I need is about 30 years of practice and I will be fine. Somewhere in my shed is my saw set. As soon as I find it and put some set on the teeth we will see how the old Spear and Jackson cuts. I am going to get some old back saws and try fixing them up. When I am confident that I can at least do no harm I will have crack at my set of Veritas saws and my old Sandvick. There is real satisfaction to be gained from taking something old and useless (like me) and turning it into something good.

One person made a very telling comment which went along the lines of "So many questions and you have already sharpened the saw."

That just about sums up the way I do things. I always read the instructions but not always first. I seldom wait till I understand properly before I do anything. About the only consistent exception is anything to do with safety. But otherwise I have always done first and asked questions later. This has lead to some failures but on the other hand for a young man (only 57) I have done a whole lot of things. Some of them even properly.

Originally Posted by Isaac S

Congratulations on taking the leap. Sometimes the fear of starting is worse than the actual job.

1. The amount of rake depends mainly on the woods you are cutting, and to a lesser extent, how nice you want the cut surface to be. The harder the wood, the less rake you can put into the saw before it starts to catch. You want the face of the tooth to be as close to vertical so that your cutting speed is maximized. Here is a more detailed explanation.

2. This depends on the woods you are cutting, the amount of taper in the saw blade, and how smooth you want the cut to be. I generally aim for about 0.006" - 0.015" (0.015 - 0.038 mm if my conversion is correct). This is quite a range, so keep in mind that it is easier to add set than to remove it. If the saw was last sharpened and set by a machine, and you did not remove much of the teeth, it is most likely overset, and you will need to remove it by filing deeper, dressing the sides of the teeth, or squeezing out some of the excess set (not an easy thing to do without a milling machine vise or press). Here is a little more information on set.

3. Just about anything will work. Just don't put a lot of it on. You really don't want a thick film finish on a working saw.

4. Absolutely nothing to offer here...

5. If by different types of files you mean sizes, then yes. Wenzloff has a good chart for the different sizes. If you mean files for filing different tooth patterns (such as two-man crosscut saws), then that is a totally different topic.


What is the ppi/tpi count of the saw? If it's very coarse, you may be looking at retoothing it entirely to end up with crosscut teeth of a desirable size.

So far as the set goes there is currently less set on the Spear and Jackson than on my Japanese pull saws! I will start with about 6 thousand and go from there.

I am not going to answer any of your questions as I am only very new myself to saw sharpening. I will say this well done on the saw sharpening.

When you get to the Sandvick (if 1950/60s) you will discover it is very hard - and tough on saw files. However, when sharp stays that way a lot longer. Remember that hard saw plates need to be set with care, unless you want to break teeth. You will also discover the saw plate is tapered both vertically and from toe to heel, so less set is required - and cutting performance is enhanced. For example my 26" 8ppi Sandvick (which used up an entire quality NOS Wiltshire file for shaping and sharpening) tapers as follows (using a cheap dial caliper, so perhaps not super accurate, but you get the idea):

Thickness
teethline
toe 0.04"
heel 0.045"
top of plate
toe 0.031"
heel 0.035"

and this is not an unused saw (no etch left), being 6.5" wide at heel, and 2.5" at toe. The taper would have been greater when new. This saw has virtually no set, and stills cuts dry pine without grabbing, I might get around to putting some set on it, but I do, ahem, have a few other crosscut 26" 8ppi saws with more set.

Cheers
Peter

Originally Posted by Heavansabove

For example my 26" 8ppi Sandvick tapers as follows :

Thickness
teethline toe 0.04" heel 0.045"
top of plate toe 0.031" heel 0.035"

and this is not an unused saw (no etch left), being 6.5" wide at heel, and 2.5" at toe. The taper would have been greater when new. This saw has virtually no set, and stills cuts dry pine without grabbing, I might get around to putting some set on it, but I do, ahem, have a few other crosscut 26" 8ppi saws with more set.

Cheers
Peter

Good measurements, thanks for making them. Sorry to pick, but the taper would actually be less when the saw is new.
Theoretically you want a uniform thickness along the toothline, and this gets decreased (particularly at the toe) as saws get sharpened and over time get to those pointy little toothpicks you see for sale sometimes.
(Obviously yours is not like that extreme ... 5 thou is not a huge amount)

I mentioned in another post about (sharp) saws that only work to 80% of the way through a stroke and stop. This might be one possible cause ... that there is a slight wedge action going on ... but it's all just ideas for me at the moment ... I don't pretend to understand the mechanics of it properly. Why, for instance, couldn't it just widen its way as it strokes through?

I have learnt about this - possibly to my cost - particularly in relation to the "No-set" type saws like the Disston Acme 120. I guess on a normal saw you can arrange the set to be uniform even if the plate is not ... but apparently on the 120s you would only want to lose something like 6mm(!) of the blade depth from new before it is no longer configured to work as it was designed to.

I forgot to say that in general (online) there is some more regard given to the 'full bladed' saw than one that has been sharpened down a fair bit. The only exception to this that I have seen is in Tom Law's (old) saw-sharpening video where he speaks fondly of well-used saws as having been worth resharpening again and again.

Cheers,
Paul

Interesting points Paul. I do not have any saws that I can guarantee are unused, so cannot test for new dimensions. For example, do you (anyone?) know the dimensions of a new Disston D8 (most common in Oz I guess) for 20" 22" 24" 26" 28"? I can then compare to those I have to see how far they are worn down. Probably need to know the period when D8 made.

To start things off - I have a 22" 1950's D8 probably close to full size judging from location of the etch and the ppi stamp at heel. Width at toe 1 7/8", width at handle/heel 6.3". Perhaps started as 2" at toe, 6.5" at heel. I have sharpened this saw a couple of times including a major reshaping when I acquired it. No breasting when purchased, nor now. Heel measured by running rule square to top of blade down to heel, or square to toothline up to top of blade (or where it would be if blade continued) produced very close dimensions.

c.1900 28" D8 toe 2.5", heel 7.5". As the ppi stamp was still well aboe toothline, probably not worn down > 1/2" or so. Another one of same vintage was 2" / 7".

Cheers
Peter

I realised back at work that I had partly mis-spoken ... the taper would be less vertically at the front of the saw ...

I was meaning that a taper would be introduced along the toothline.

I haven't heard whether sawblade sizes were fixed in stone from year to year ... certainly they were turning them out faster than bloody iPhones

Cheers,
Paul